Re Rigging a schooner with SS7x7 Nicopress

[stevesailor]

Hello

I'm crewing on a Tom Colvin junk-rigged Doxy that needs to have its standing rigging re-done. The former rigging, now 38 years old, is 7x7 stainless with spliced soft eyes aloft around the mast and spliced
thimbles where it meets the turnbuckles. Colvin in his books suggests 7x7 galvanized, painted with two part paint, and nicopressed swages. The captain wants to do 316 stainless 7x7 or 7x19, and nicopress eyes.

I've read a bunch from books and the internet (including this forum) about nicopress fittings, most of the topics talk about how it's not appropriate to do for 1x19. I'm wondering what people's feelings are about copper or copper/zinc sleeves on stainless 7x7 or 7x19. There's a bunch of information saying it retains 100% breaking strength "when pressed correctly." I'm wondering if this pressing is done with the clamp tools, or with hydralics (if you can nicopress sleeves that way).

I understand that spliced eyes are stronger, no one aboard knows how to splice wire or has the tools (plus I'm under the understanding you need to do them for quite a while before you can start trusting them). The boat is a 50ft junk rig schooner, so lower tension than a marconi. Would it be appropriate to use nicopress fittings to secure the eyes and thimbles? Why or why not? What other alternatives could work (take into consideration staylok etc won't work for the soft eye splices around the mast)? How do nicopresses commonly fail if they do?

Thanks for all the information thus far and I look forward to the responses.

-Steve

[Brion Toss]

Hello,
Terminals are tools, and you use different ones for different jobs. But first, let's correct the assumption that, because this is not a Marconi rig, the loads are lower. Depending on relative angle, number and strength of shrouds, and vessel stability, they might actually be higher on any or all wires, than on a comparable-size Marconi rig. So, as always, see about running the stability numbers.
Next, the soft eyes are the tricky bit; I've seen a few rigs done with nicopressed soft eyes, and too many of them had broken yarns at the throat of the eyes, from the lateral loads there. You can reduce this by making the eyes longer, but if you do the trig I think you'll see that you will need ridiculously long eyes to reduce the lateral load much.
Nicopresses can work at the lower ends, but you will almost certainly need to get this done at a commercial shop, assuming 3/8" is the correct size for any/all of these wires.
Nicopresses are corrosion-vulnerable, and, in my experience, are more likely to trap water (crevice corrosion) than swages. They'd be a good, cost-effective terminal at least for the lower ends, but wouldn't be likely to last as long as your splices did (38 years, wow, that is probably pushing things severely; what climate was this in?) Consider having someone else splice those upper ends. Either that, or convert to tangs, if that is possible.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

[stevesailor]

Thanks for the reply!

I shared it with my captain. The rigging is 38 years old, but almost all those years the boat was sitting in a yard unused. My captain started putting it back together seven years ago and launched it 3 years ago. We've looked at having the soft eyes spliced, or possibly moving to tangs. After being on another schooner I learned you can use thimbles with swages; I hadn't seen that type of fitting until then, so swages are possible.

Until now she was set on 7x7 SS 316 wire. Galvanized has lots of appeal, but I'm wondering how to properly treat it so it lasts with all of its strength. Another boat I was on coated it all in lanolin, then parceled and served it. Another boat applied a lanolin based product, that I can't recall, periodically. I was wondering what advice you all had for treating/preserving galvanized rigging. In Colvin's books he suggests using a two part epoxy paint (the type I don't know, that's the only specification I could find).

Also, where we are in Panama 7x19 is much easier to get than 7x7. I heard from someone to upsize one sized since 7x19 is weaker, with more stretch. I'm wondering if the stretch should be of more concern, or if 7x19 is a good choice.

Thanks again for all the help!
-Steve

[Brion Toss]

Hi again,
First, I'd avoid 7x19. It is actually stronger than 7x7, but far more elastic, and far, far more corrosion-vulnerable. Galvanized 7x7 is hard to come by these days, but if you find some, you need to be skilled in applying parcelling and service, if it is to last long.
You can find details on preserving wire in the "Apprentice." I've never tried the two-part paint. Anyone out there have experience with it on wire?
If you can get good stainless 7x7, that would be a good way to go. 1x19 is also an option, and is generally far more available.

But let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. If the rigging is essentially unused, might it not be usable? What do you know about its current condition? Who has looked at it, with what tools, and what conclusions did they come to?
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

[Brion Toss]

Hi again,
First, I'd avoid 7x19. It is actually stronger than 7x7, but far more elastic, and far, far more corrosion-vulnerable. Galvanized 7x7 is hard to come by these days, but if you find some, you need to be skilled in applying parcelling and service, if it is to last long.
You can find details on preserving wire in the "Apprentice." I've never tried the two-part paint. Anyone out there have experience with it on wire?
If you can get good stainless 7x7, that would be a good way to go. 1x19 is also an option, and is generally far more available.

But let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. If the rigging is essentially unused, might it not be usable? What do you know about its current condition? Who has looked at it, with what tools, and what conclusions did they come to?
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

[stevesailor]

Thanks again for the reply.
The rigging was used for a period, put away for a few decades, and has been in use for the past four years. It's showing signs of wear, corrosion, and the splices don't look like they were done very well initially, so the owner is choosing to replace. I wouldn't say anyone would expertise has taken a look at it.
The biggest reason the captain is avoiding 1x19 is because it has to have spliced soft eyes aloft, and I haven't heard word about splicing 1x19 aside from that it's ridiculously hard, and doesn't nicopress well. We heard you can get 316 7x7 from RiggingOnly, so we're checking into that and the prices. Personally, I'd love to learn to wiresplice, but don't want my first attempts to be on a working vessel.

Thanks
-Steve

[Bosco]

Just a quick comment but soft eyes on the mast sorta/kinda makes me think Dynex Dux... It would certainly be my first choice for a Colvin Gazelle.

[pelorus32]

Originally Posted by Bosco

Just a quick comment but soft eyes on the mast sorta/kinda makes me think Dynex Dux... It would certainly be my first choice for a Colvin Gazelle.

Whilst I don't know the Colvin designs so I won't comment on using it for this boat, I do have a view about heat set Dyneema. I'm currently putting my money where my mouth is and having a 32 foot Lyle Hess cutter re-rigged in heat set Dyneema.

I've been watching the material for about 5-6 years and I've looked at some lovely rigging jobs done with it. I think it's got to the stage that the brave and adventurous souls have done the development work; we know a lot about this material and the best way to use it; we know about it's behaviour in different circumstances...It's no longer pioneering stuff. As someone who had re-rigged a large boat with it said to me when I asked whether I should use heat set Dyneema: "You're asking the wrong question. The right question is "why would you ever use anything else"". Accepting some hyperbole, there's a lot of truth in that.

My comments would be: First you have more choices in heat set Dyneema than Dynex Dux. Look around and ask advice. Second - use a product with an over braid, sized for the core. Third - whilst, on the face of it, this material looks like a DIY godsend, I reckon it's the same as most other stuff: use professional help to get it right.

Perhaps Joe H or Brion have a view on using it for this vessel. It does sound intuitively sensible for soft eyes...

[Joe Henderson]

Steve,

I must admit, I did not know what a Colvin junk rigged schooner was, so, after actually doing some research into the vessel, I reckon that Dyneema rigging will serve ( no pun intended ) you well on this boat.

Your problem is that you are in Panama and I do not know who would be able to help you down there.

You would have to tot up the lengths and sizes you need - as Brion advises, run the numbers or find the specs on-line, maybe, then order the components and make it up yourself.... OR, measure carefully and get a complete set made up and sent to you for installation, not an easy or quick process.

Dyneema is fine for drop over eyes. Make sure any thumb cleats or lands and bolsters are fair and smooth.


If you are going to stay with wire, then stainless 7X7 is fine if you can get it - use copper Talurit ferrules and get the eyes hydraulically pressed- someone in Panama will surely have the machine and dies. You will probably have to source the ferrules in the States or Europe. Spencer Rigging in Cowes will have all the wire and components in stock.
The exact ferrule code depends on the wire size and construction and available dies ( see experience, below ) also, depending on the wire size and construction, thimbles will be a problem, but Crosby do some beauties.

Stay away from 7x19.

If the loft you are going to use is experienced, then they should be able to Talurit stainless 1x19 in a satifactory manner, experience is the key word here! Thimble choice, ferrule selection and pressing procedure and soft eye configuration are of paramount importance.

You have a job on your hands, and not necesarily one for the inexperienced or faint hearted, good luck and keep asking questions on here,

Joe.