stainless steel and thimbles

[Mighty Mouse]

Is it safe to wrap stainless steel around a thimble on my stay ends? I have heard many mixed opinions. 3/16 ss wire, 20 ft boat. And any opinions on using a swage at the mast head end and a turn around a thimble at the deck end? Thank you.

[Brion Toss]

Hello,
The thimble itself is the big variable. If it is too small, it is vulnerable to collapse and/or cracking. Too big, and it won't fit into the right size turnbuckle. This is why, for standing rigging, solid thimbles are preferable.
Then there's the relationship between thimble and wire. Especially with 1x19, the radius of the thimble might be less than the wire needs to avoid deforming/weakening in the bend. Which is why extra-wide-radius solid thimbles are preferable for standing rigging.
Most of the time, when people use thimbles, they seem to do so as a cheap expedient, and it usually works -- that is, doesn't fail immediately and catastrophically -- regardless of thimble size or type. But getting the lower terminal consonant with the rest of the wire is important.
In your case, you could probably tie a Bowline in the end of the wire and put it directly onto the turnbuckle clevis pin, with no problems; 3/16" wire on a 20ft. boat? Really?
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

[Mighty Mouse]

HI Brion,

Thanks for this. What do you mean by this:
But getting the lower terminal consonant with the rest of the wire is important. ?

re: the wire, yes, I did not have a lot of knowledge when purchasing and this is what I was sold for standing rigging(!). Then I discovered books and professionals. I now know it is 7x19. I suspect it could be smaller than 3/16 right? Anyway, it's being swaged now at the top end and a mechanical fitting will be used at the bottom as it has a core. I hope this will be fine and I will have safe and happy sailing for a few years. Any major concerns I would appreciate hearing about and will approach re rigging differently the next time. First timer.

I do have a question about toggles on the turnbuckles. My spreader width is within an inch of the width of the boat at the chainplates. Should I toggle the turnbuckles? At one end? both ends? There is a shroud to the spreader and one to the mast head. Note: some of the forks in my turnbuckles have slight bends. Actually not sure which wire they came off of and not sure if they were there before put on the boat in the first place. The last time it was re-rigged was over 10 years ago. Thanks!

[Joe Henderson]

Dear Mighty Mouse,

Go quickly to the loft or website of your nearest professional YACHT rigger and prostrate yourself in front of his bench/webpage and beg him to help you.

7X19 is not the right wire for your standing rigging.

Bent turnbuckles have no place in a rig that you want to provide you with "safe and happy sailing for a few years."

Regards,

Joe Henderson

[Mighty Mouse]

gulp. You're scaring me. I have been working with someone considered to be a professional rigger who felt the 7x 19 will suffice for my 20 ft boat and who felt that the slight bends in the forks on a couple of my turnbuckles were not scarey. So I am hearing to question that seriously and start over? Brion, your comments?

[Stumble]

7x19 is used for wire halyards, not standing rigging. Personally I don't think it has any use on a boat anymore but some might reasonably disagree, but I don't know anyone who would use it for standing rigging.

A bent anything, is definatly compromised. And likely seriously. I don't like to reuse 316 bolts that have been in place for more than a year, I defintly wouldn't reuse a bent piece of critical equipment. any rigger who suggests otherwise I would have doubts about. Either he really doesn't kow, or is afraid to tell you to replace the part because he is concerned about loosing your business, not selling you the right equipment.

[Brion Toss]

Hi again,
Relax. All is well. Maybe not optimal, but well. 7x19 is too elastic to be ideal for standing rigging, and too corrosion-vulnerable in warm climates, but it will do just fine. You won't be able to point as high, might have to reef a bit sooner, but hey, I had to use it to rig the Lyle Hess cutter we used as a model for rigging in the "Apprentice".
One way to compensate for the extra elasticity is to make the wire oversize, and that appears to be what you have. As for the "consonant" reference, I meant that thimble radius, if it is not to weaken the wire, must be suited to wire diameter and construction. And as it happens, 7x19 can take a relatively tight radius. It might be enough that you just use the heaviest thimbles that can fit into the turnbuckle jaws.
Bent turnbuckles are another thing entirely. They are not okay. The rig is always trying to straighten them, and too often simply succeeds in breaking them.
Finally, please step back from all these scary details, soften your focus, and see the rig as a whole, as a system. Yes, this is PT woo-woo, but it is also a valuable engineering approach. Component selection should properly happen at the end of a design process, so that all the answers are obvious. Your rig is knowable.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

[Mighty Mouse]

I do appreciate everyone's feedback. The knowledge out there is impressive. Consider me learning fast (yet maybe not soon enough or in the right order!) and grateful for the time and thought that has gone into your answers.

[Mighty Mouse]

Brion, can you say more about why the boat will not point as high with the 3/16 7x19 stays? And is there some way to know that it is time to reef (prior to when I might normally?...usually before I go out if the wind is above 15 in the channel where I am. I am pretty conservative.)

Is there a book (or equation) that details how one determines, for instance, mast height, wire size, turnbuckles size on a given boat style of specific dimensions?

On my turnbuckles it is one of the threaded rods on the fork that are slightly bent on 3 of them. I would like to at least get the rigging on the boat (and, therefore, mast out of the boatyard) until I can find good used or purchase new ones. Will going for a sail in mild winds (under 15) be out of the question until I get those replaced?

I REALLY do appreciate SparTalk.

Thanks.

[Ian McColgin]

One cannot predict the failure moment of a compromised bit of rigging. The bend is not the whole story - there may be some corrosion; depending on how the bend was inflicted it may have compromised the molecular structure; and depending on exactly how the forces straighening it out work out, the molecular structure could reach a breaking point or not. One guy around here ran into a dock and put a quite noticable bend in one stud of his jibstay turnbuckle. That was about ten years ago. Still sailing happily and his approach to sail trim is so casual that any loss of pointing ability is hidden by general sloppiness. On the contrary, one of my seven dismastings was due to the sudden failure of a turnbuckle with a bent stud, a bend so subtle that when I'd pointed it out to the owner and suggested we change it, he opted to try for just one more year . . .

So fix it. Or not but no whining if the risk turns to reality.

G'luck