nicopress standing rigging?

[ghetto_yachting]

I feel compelled to respond to this thread after 6 years because when searching for "nicopress" and "standing rigging" the first two links on google bring you here (the first one indirectly). I'm not an expert, but I believe the nicopress fitting may have gotten the short end of the stick. Yes, they are ugly, but I believe they have a place on inexpensive boats where the owner would like to save money by doing his or her own rigging.

I called nicopress and I talked to a guy who is a sailor and he said the fittings are perfectly suitable for standing rigging and that the fittings are guaranteed to exceed the rated strength of the wire when properly installed. He stated he has several friends who use the fittings on their standing rigging and that the fittings are also used structurally on aircraft. He also said you need to use the copper or stainless fittings (not aluminum of course), that the plating needs to be correct for the wire type and the crimps need to be checked with a gauge to make sure they are within specification.

In my personal experience I've seen plenty of boats with these fittings on standing rigging in marinas, mostly plastic classics from the 60s with wire that looks like it could be original. Masts are still standing.

And what about england where they supposedly use nicopress more often? Are the winds really lower? I don't know, but looking at a wind map there are plenty of areas with 16 - 22mph winds today in the UK, higher than the 10kts here on the San Francisco Bay. How about the salinity? The map I'm looking at shows the salinity around england is average, and below average for most of the US coast. (see here: http://www.coas.oregonstate.edu/imag...alinitymap.jpg)

So it seems if you have a nice boat and/or are having your rigging professionally made, than swaged is the way to go. If your boat is crusty, you want to do it yourself and you are strapped for cash, then nicopress may be your man. I do not believe using nicopress fittings is a safety issue if properly done.

Disclaimer: I am not an expert in any way, shape or form. I have never replaced rigging on any boat I have owned and I clearly have no idea what I am talking about.

[Brion Toss]

Hi there,
The very helpful rep that I spoke with at Nico said that, while their terminals will break the wire in 6x and 7x constructions, they were less efficient in 1x19. The problem, as he put it, was that the yarns behave like the threads on a screw, so the terminals can slip. For this reason, you should never use Nicopress fittings as end-stops, as they don't hold at all well in that application.
I did not ask the rep about efficiency per se; that is, while the terminal might break the wire in a test, rather than slipping, I don't know if it weakens the wire, or by how much. Cable clamps, for instance, won't slip, when properly done, but weaken the wire by 20% or so. I am hoping that the rep might sign in here, to elucidate/correct all this.
Finally, 1x19 is reluctant to go around thimbles, and thimbles that are big enough in radius -- and which won't collapse under extreme loads -- can be too big to fit into yacht turnbuckles.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

[ghetto_yachting]

Ok, so what about using 7x7 wire, one size up?

E.g. say a Coronado 25 with 3/16" 1x19 gets re-rigged with 1/4" 7x7 galvanized and copper nicopress:

-If the original rig was 316 the break strength goes from 4000lb to 6100 lbs, an increase of 50%
-If the original rig was 302/304 the break strength goes from 4700lb to 6100 lbs, an increase of 30%
-Assume 150ft of wire aloft, weight aloft goes up by just 4lbs
-If the nicopress reduces the wire strength by 20% it is still stronger than the original swaged 1x19

I imagine the break strength of the wire would not be reduced by a nicropress fitting, if it were then nicopress' claims would be erroneous. I could develop my own wire end that is only 1/9th as strong as the wire, but reduces the strength of the wire by 90% and still claim full break strength.

Either way, on a boat like a Coronado 25 a "proper" re-rigging can exceed the value of the boat. That doesn't make much sense in my book when there may be a much more economical option that is just as seaworthy.

Again, we're not talking about an Alerion Express, we're talking about boats that may not get re-rigged if the price is too high. This is a safety issue.

Originally Posted by Brion Toss

Hi there,
The very helpful rep that I spoke with at Nico said that, while their terminals will break the wire in 6x and 7x constructions, they were less efficient in 1x19. The problem, as he put it, was that the yarns behave like the threads on a screw, so the terminals can slip. For this reason, you should never use Nicopress fittings as end-stops, as they don't hold at all well in that application.
I did not ask the rep about efficiency per se; that is, while the terminal might break the wire in a test, rather than slipping, I don't know if it weakens the wire, or by how much. Cable clamps, for instance, won't slip, when properly done, but weaken the wire by 20% or so. I am hoping that the rep might sign in here, to elucidate/correct all this.
Finally, 1x19 is reluctant to go around thimbles, and thimbles that are big enough in radius -- and which won't collapse under extreme loads -- can be too big to fit into yacht turnbuckles.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

[edzacko]

Hey Oyster,
I have used Norseman fittings for over 30 years with absolutely NO problems whatever. They are not that difficult to assemble but yes, it does help to practice a bit before you "go for it."

I installed roller furling back in 1998 and continued to use the Norseman fittings on the head stay and have never had anything come apart due to rotation.

Having said that--I did almost lose an eye a couple of years ago--while standing in a dinghy talking to someone one of his Sta Loks just went BANG and came within a hair of taking my eye. This fitting was on a hydraulic back stay and over time became unscrewed. It was just on its very last thread and I was "just there at that moment."

We reassembled the fitting and experimented a bit---what happened was that every time we pumped the hydraulic lever we could see the rod from the piston turning just a bit in the counter-clockwie direction and over time it produced just enough pressure on the fitting to gradually unscrew.

On this last re-rig I decided to "retire" the old Norseman fittings and try the Hayn Hi Mods. They are really easy to assemble. And, as I just discovered---really easy to disassemble and re-assemble.

My guess is that if you do a cost analysis of paying someone to build the swaged rig for you and the cost of "doing the mechanicals yourself" you might find it is not as expensive as you fear. Especially if you plan on keeping the boat for a long time. It is in the future re-rigs that you will save the money.
My recent re-rig cost 1500.00 us complete--buying all new Hi Mods and wire.

Good Luck
Ed Zacko

[Brion Toss]

Hi there,
First, the unscrewing you describe is most notable with Dyform backstays that are coupled with hydraulics. That's because both interior and exterior Dyform yarns are laid up the same way, and thus why Navtec expressly forbids this material being connected to hydraulic adjusters. 1x19, on the other hand, should be balanced enough that it will unlay a bit under load, then relay.
Also remember: correlation is not causation. Norseman (and Hayn, and all similar fittings) can come unwound. That's what LocTite is for.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss