Bob Stay and Whisker Stays

[April]

I am still in the midst of splicing, rigging and such in the restoration of my boat, a 1934 S and S Ketch.

I did learn to splice 1 x 19 and I actually like it now that I am in the 1/4 and below diameters... I must not be that strong as the 5/16 really kicked my butt! I would be red and sweaty after each splice. The boat had 1 x 19 spliced eyes on all the standing rigging but for the bowsprit.

Now I am working on the bowsprit. It had 7 x 19 with spliced soft eyes for both the bobstay and whisker stays. (I have nasty meat hook wounds in my hands just from measuring the old stuff)

The bobstay was 3/8 7 x 19 and the whisker stays were 3/16 I would like to use 1 x 19 but I have heard that the shrouds and bobstay should be more flexible. Is this an absolute? If I can use the 1 x 19 I will have to make a strop as this is the plan for this rig. I would need to use 7 x 19 to make grommets/strops, is there a sizing rule on what diameter wire I would use for them? Can I use 3/8 1 x 19 with a 3/8 strop? I will of course parcel and serve the strops. Do the strops have to be of the same strength of the shrouds?

I have the rigging plans for the boat - the only plan that does not state size and type of wire is the bowsprit plan... I am totally going by what was previously on this boat. - the rest of her was rigging matches her original plans.

[Brion Toss]

Hi April,
First, congratulations on learning to splice 1x19. Have you tried tucking one yarn at a time with that 5/16"? What are you using for a vise? Care to send some photo's of finished splices, now that it's too late to correct any flaws in technique?
There is no reason to go with 7x19 for the bobstay and bowsprit shrouds. Far from it, this is a bad area for something so corrosion-vulnerable. As for the bobstay dimension, it must relate to the size of the jibstay, and the angles that the two wires form with the bowsprit. Please contact me if you'd like details.
Grommets, properly-served, can be of 1x19, as they should be corrosion-proof. Grommets can approach twice the nominal strength of the rope, depending on how wide the angle out of the seizing is, so you should be able to mate them to same-diameter 1x19. But why make grommets at all, instead of soft eyes with the 1x19, seized? This would be a surer, cleaner connection by far.
Be in touch.
Fair leads,
Brion

[April]

Thank you for a quick reply, I did try one strand at a time but within three strand bundles...still it was a bit of a wrestle. I got a dental bone thing off ebay- it is great to use as a fid- it is stainless and very strong. I bent a couple of my other fids.

I made my own vise. I tried to copy all kinds of them and then finally I made my own, it works better than anything else I tried. I bought the z vise thing and it just didn't do what I needed, I suppose my wrists are just not that strong ... yet. I even had a bunch of vises used for making layers of stuff like veneer and such and I made some crazy three point vise and finally I threw it in the corner and made one that is easy for me.

The plans call for a turnbuckle just under the bowsprit then it goes to the stem fitting.. but when I got the boat the turnbuckle was at the stem fitting. I would love to put a picture up but I do not have a web page, I am not sure how to attach a picture here.

I am glad you agree that 1 x 19 is doable, I hate those nicks and cuts from the meat hooks.

[Ian McColgin]

If you must have a turnbuckle, keep it up under the bowsprit where it's less subject to corrosion. Better yet if you can make the splice with reasonable accuracy or perhaps adjust the cranse iron or paired fork a little, no turnbuckle. Heave the sprit down with some hanging weights and draw the parts together by pulling with turnbuckle or come-along on a very strong selvagee on the splice and led to a very solid point in line with the stay's landing.

Tension adjustment will then be handled by the jib stay, as it should be, and you have one less part. The only problem with this method is getting enough strain that you strain the stay enough that when you hook up and crank in the jib stay you don't get the sprit pointing skyward. The bow sprits on my boats could be stove down almost a half inch with a few hundred pounds hanging on the end so it only takes a 100# pull to make the wire fit right. Once the thing was hooked up and the jib stay fastened, the sprit was back to nearly straight - just an aesthetic litte steve-down to it.

G'luck

[April]

Hmm maybe I won't have to mess with adjustments much you see I do not have a cransiron nor does my bowsprit move at all! It is fitted through the bullworks and under the caprail. it nests upon a teak curved step on the deck before it goes through the samson posts.

I am going to give the 3/8 a try.... it will be like wrestling with an anaconda to get that 4 inch oval for the strop. I might make it a bit bigger as it won't be hanging downward like the mast soft eyes... I can then just use some seizing to make it the right size. Other than bronze screws for locust wood and lignum cheeks and of course the bronze bolts for the samson posts, no other metals have been in this bow sprit or on it. I do have some bronze small rollers but they connect by screwing opposite and into each other through the bowsprit. The masts and bow sprit are all solid wood. The bowsprit is spruce and nicely light...those masts are fir and very very heavy!

This is actually another problem I face as this boat had no depth transducer nor wire into the masts. Did get a simple transducer which will mean minimum drilling into the hull... the stem is 11.5 inches thick and there are huge floor timbers. I will drill with a long 1/8 th drill bit and then use a 2 inch Forstner to place it with some goo.

I worked so hard on those masts (others too)... I can't bear to see any holes in it. I wish they made solar nav lights which could be turned on and off... I did find some but they were kinda ugly and around 2 K a piece. The remote was another 2K.

Truly this boat is just the way she was launched. I have put her back to her previous name and her masts are varnished again.

Well I had better get on with the anaconda.

[April]

the wire did not like it. I could do a nice big soft eye but it hated anything near a 6 inch diameter circle. The bow sprit is around 3 and a half inches where that thing would go and there was no way I could do it without hurting the wire.

I have never tried 7 x 19 but I will see how it goes. surely there is a kinder strop I could make? It will have to be parceled and served anyway....?

[seawolf]

April,
I heard of your project from Austin at the club. I often get on spar talk and saw your post.
Good luck and I will get in touch with you to possibly drop by to take some photos.
I am now the historian for this year.
Bob Kelly
Volador
1962 Columbia 29

[April]

sure, the boat is still inside she is very pretty! I am supposed to take pictures for S and S and also for a few magazines. I want to wait for the before and after affect. Just looking back on the pictures I have makes me grab for Advil.

Well I made a ton of 1 x 19 strops! LOL... well it is the best way to learn I suppose! They will make great ring toss pieces! There is no way 1 x 19 likes to be crunched and turned like that. I had never tried so I just didn't know. I now understand why small diameter strops are made with 7 x 19. I was so proud of myself for laying out 50 ft lengths in my house and taking each piece out so I could then weave them one at a time.... I couldn't stop. My hands are black.

The stiff circles are pretty much worthless.... Oh I could use them to stiffen up some cloth bucket I suppose. This was a very good learning exercise. 1 x 19 is fine for large soft eyes and it is so smooth and shiny but for a strop it is ridiculous. I can use small diameter wire if the strop is large enough but since I have to cover it I might as well just get 7x19.

This project has been tuition in many ways! .

[Brion Toss]

Originally Posted by April

Thank you for a quick reply, I did try one strand at a time but within three strand bundles...still it was a bit of a wrestle. I got a dental bone thing off ebay- it is great to use as a fid- it is stainless and very strong. I bent a couple of my other fids.

Bent them? Something is so wrong here. The wire sizes you are speaking of, except the 3/8" should distinctly not be a wrestle. Are you using my instructions? I am a bit concerned about those splices, April.


]QUOTE]
The plans call for a turnbuckle just under the bowsprit then it goes to the stem fitting.. but when I got the boat the turnbuckle was at the stem fitting. I would love to put a picture up but I do not have a web page, I am not sure how to attach a picture here. [/quote]

With a soft eye at the upper end you wouldn't be able to put a turnbuckle there. But putting it at the bottom means putting your largest, most expensive, and least needed turnbuckle down where there's corrosion and collision. Better to have a linkplate at the bottom to take the abuse. You could also be a bit more approximate with your wire length, then cut the linkplate to a precise length to make up the distance.
As for a soft eye on a 3 1/2" diameter spar, that's a good bit more than the width of thimbles that are purpose-built for 1x19. The best procedure is to make an oversized eye, so you don't strain the entry, then seize it to fit. I never meant you to make a strop for this location; those are generally reserved for hanging blocks and such.
It seems unlikely that I can talk you in to slowing down, but it sounds like you are doing things much less than optimally, on a boat that you profess to care for. Are the splices beautiful? Do you know how strong they are? Reassure me here.
Fair leads,
Brion

[April]

The fid was not stainless (in fact it was something I used for leather) and it was only used to "push" the strands along to a place of being set. I do not want to do a lot of "unlaying" so that the rope is not needlessly disturbed Actually two bent just trying to put them in between the strands... I have taken pictures of all my splices as I will want to have a complete packet for my survey as well as my insurance. I think we are doing very nice work. I have taken them to San Diego to be checked and I am told that they are tight. The surveyor comes by weekly to check the progress.

Yes, I am using your instructions. I have had your book for years. I have been given so many pieces of advice from those who did the splices in the old days... I was even told that many folks used to break off inner strands as it made it easier to lay in but I have not. I am copying every bit of the original rigging. Each soft eye was measured, pictured, and traced. I removed parcel and checked to see how each splice was made. My splices look just like the ones I have uncovered. My daughter is helping me and she has experience splicing on a tall ship. She has won splicing contests as a Sea Scout. She sometimes teaches it... I have to catch her when she has time but she is very particular. I trust her judgement.

This is how we have noted that there were different folks who were on the rigging team back in 1987. Some people have different ways of starting the marriage on the same type of splice. It appears to be a "'style" if you may. The rig was done by the "head rigger of the Star of India" (as per the old owners information) in 1987 and the boat was left to slowly "age"...

It is funny because each time I attempt to improve on something I end up going back to the original plan., I have full time shipwrights on this boat and this has been going on since July 3rd-- sometimes 7 days a week. I can't do all the work myself .. I have "friends" who are naval architects and they too come by to watch. Truly this boat is not being rushed through. Nothing about it has been quick although it seems to be- as a huge restoration has taken place in 6 months.

The boat is in a yard where wooden boats are built. Many wooden boats are in the joining marina. I get to talk to some very interesting people. I assure you that if I was doing something wrong I would be the first to hear about it and from many sources! So I do a ton of research! I do a ton of "practice"... as I both care for the boat and for those who are working so hard to make this a marvelous project. And to be sure this is not something that I will want to pay for again (a complete restoration ) As in many things worth doing right it is not cheap. I have been given great help but in the end someone has to pay for it.

I am not that strong either, while carrying a drill press it leaned over as I put it in my van and I tore 4 ligaments. I had to have surgery last September, my strength is not back and I don't want to force it as it takes a long time to totally heal repaired ligaments.

No rig has been applied as yet. The bow sprit is on the boat but it is very tight and it is in the samson posts. Nothing was done to the spars but removal of all bronze screws and lead paint. Then they were varnished 12 coats. Tests were done to make sure the wood was sound. It is hard. A drill hole at the top and some at the bottom then plugs to fill. The wood is great. I suspect that the thick coating of white lead and then lead paint had something to do with that.

The plans for the bobstay show a strop with a thimble to a turnbuckle. under the bowsprit. I will do it that way. I don't want to put the turnbuckle where it was. I am not sure why it was decided to change that part of the rigging plan. Everything else follows the plans.

I will be going to the boat this week and I had hoped to have strops ready. I won't. I will get some 7 x 19 and do it the way it has been done before. I am eager to produce something, I use this board to bounce off ideas, research and learn but much more goes on behind the computer screen. I may make a ton of strops only to find out they won't work. It is tuition. The only way I will know is to try.