Mast Steps

[davidsamuelson]

Hi Matt,
They look good and have some good features but...
Have you ever been up a mast when the boat is rolling in a big sea? Maybe in the rain to make it even more exciting? The first few steps are just fine but after that when you really get swung around life can get VERY unexciting, (even with enclosed steps.) You, as a climber, certainly have one big advantage: no fear, but even for you to hang on would be a chalenge when up 50'.
What people see/use in a marina is often mis-leading or downright dangerous when out at sea. For the average sailor I think your steps would be dangerous. I am sorry to be so negative when the item LOOKS so good; my halyard gets caught all the time on my steps, a real pain, but at least the steps have a certain amount of safety. I haven't ever run a line up the outside of the steps, but that seems to be a way that some people solve the halyard wrap problem.
Be careful
David

[mholmes]

david-
Surely no offense taken, and I appreciate the feedback. I totally agree with you in that our steps are not the best choice for everyone, and are on the small side. I too was very skeptical about how well they would be received by non-climbers. However, jonny keeps sending anyone and everyone up the mast when they visit, to see how they fare. So far everyone, including all our friends, four very attractive women, a 10 year old, and three retired 50+ guys in the marina have ensured us that they honestly felt safe on them. But who knows, they could be just saying it to be nice. The very first guy who convinced us to make some for him was a retired guy in his 50's, so I know that he at least is psyched about them. but yeah, you're right, they are on the small side for sure

I have been up the mast in the sf bay about 6 times now in 15-25 knots of wind and for me at least it was perfectly fine (actually it was super fun), though the chop in the bay can't compare to a big swell and I don't know how I would fare in those conditions. But in the bay at least it's totally doable. Interestingly enough, I found that past a certain angle of heel it became easier, because I could stay just on the windward side of the mast and walk up it like a ramp. And if I hang out at the very top for too long I start to get a little woozy from the swaying, especially if the guys down below are furiously tacking back and forth to show me a really good time!

again, much thanks for the comments,
matt

[SV Papillon]

nice concept

I would suggest some type of non-skid for the top glued or painted on the angle before you cut it etc. If used with a harness, lanyard around mast and halyard with someone belaying it is a very good tool for going aloft that should be safe for anyone. I can see some pretty big issues selling them as a sole means of working aloft, which it seems is your pitch?
good luck
Jake

PS probably a good idea to load test one as a reference

[mholmes]

great idea with the non-skid--the top of the steps are slippery when wet--and we're already on it. Our first samples of die-cut nonskid pads should arrive this week. Peel them off, stick them on, already cut to the shape of the step, I'm psyched about them

also excellent idea about the load testing--I'll put that on the list and start thinking about how we might go about that. The two 1/4" stainless rivets are bomber, but I'm still curious about it.

if people want these steps we'll provide them, but I don't want to really pitch them. we made a batch for a friend and had plenty left over, so we figured we would see if others wanted them too. I am super busy with other work, both day job and boat work, so this mast step thing is a side project. It will be only the most crotchety cruising types that end up using them, I would guess

much thanks for the excellent points,
matt

[Brion Toss]

Hello,
After hearing way too many tragic "bounce" stories having to do with better steps than these, I am in no way in favor of your design. It's hard to know where to start, but let's go with the matter of so-far-universal approval from people who have tried them. Unless every one of those who have tried them has a meaningful basis of reference, their opinion isn't exactly valuable. So basically you are exposing ignorant people to real danger.
Then there's the matter of lack of a positive outer stop. Even with anti-skid, it is going to be far too easy to slip off of these steps. And then there's the number of screws or rivets (2) holding them on. More fasteners are a bother, but they are also reassuringly redundant, and they distribute the unavoidable long-term shear loads nicely.
Mast steps have been around for a long time, long enough for people to understand the above points, and more; the best designs reflect this knowledge. Yours don't.
I just installed 4 mast steps today, down low, to enable the owners to reach the head of the mains'l. The steps were the fold-down kind, with rough tread and an outboard keeper. Tomorrow I'll be installing 2 more, about 4.5ft down from the masthead, as a place to stand once one gets up there using a bosun's chair. I believe that any other use even for good mast steps is hazardous in too many instances. So I agree with a comment above that if you must install steps all the way up, that you always also use a harness with some form of fall arrest.
"It's just like climbing a ladder", people will say. Yeah, a medieval ladder, with the upright running up the middle. A skinny, slick aluminum ladder that is waving in the air in often unpredictable ways.
So while I commend your interest in doing things cheaply and simply, it is not always possible to do so and still approach anything like safety. Your steps are a case in point.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

[Ian McColgin]

Thank you Brion. I started a reply that even cited your oft repeated remark about poles for ladders - I called it a stick with nails on each side - but the whole bit was too intemperate so I didn't send. I think your remarks strike the right balance of encouraging people to try stuff but discouraging positivly dangerous ideas.

The one thing I'd add is that there could be a liability issue if you make something for others and, using it as intended and claimed and forseeable, they are hurt.

G'luck all

Ian

[davidsamuelson]

As Brion says "some kind of fall arrest" Thats fine if you are going up in flat water but don't kid yourself that it is the answer to making your steps safe. Going back to the rolling situation, how would you fare swinging on a halyard when you come off your steps half way up. Now we are really in trouble. David

[Bob Pingel]

Hi Brion-

What brand of step are you using these days?

Thanks,

Bob Pingel

[mholmes]

thanks again to all for your comments (even the unnecessarily intemperate ones).

If any of you are in the san francisco bay area, or happen to visit the bay area, you are welcome anytime to stop by and try out our steps firsthand. Perhaps your opinion may differ if you try them out yourself, as opposed to sight unseen. Or not! Either way, fair winds--and safety to all of us on our respectively differing masts . . .

regards,
matt

[JamHass]

This has been a great thread. Let me start by noting a couple of disclosures:
1. I am one of Matt's satisfied customers
2. I am a former rock climber
3. (Contrary to Matt's statement) I'm over 60 (thanks Matt!)

All that said, let me amplify Brion's (and other's) cautions that some form of fall protection is necessary, and that applies to any mast steps. In my opinion, ALL one can ask of any mast steps is to make the task of getting up there less strenuous, and that alone makes it safer. I climbed my mast many times before installing Matt's steps, and I've tried probably all methods, from hand-over-hand to prussiks & Jumars, and several rigs and proprietary methods. None are as easy as steps, and Matt's work very well.

I noticed a comment that the two screws/rivets might not be sufficient. I am an engineer, and I'm not concerned. The load will always be static, limited to the climbers weight, and on the order of 10% of the shear strength of 2 1/4-inch screws. I have cleats and other fittings held with 2 1/4 inch bolts threaded into the mast that take far greater loads.

The small size can be seen as an advantage: they certainly do NOT give you a false sense of security, so there is a very good chance the average sailor will actually use a proper belay.

All in all, I am very pleased with the results, and recommend them. With luck, the time I spent installing them will reduce the chance I'll need them "in anger" (fat chance.)

Jim