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  #1  
Old 06-29-2009, 01:59 PM
allene allene is offline
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Default Which line for a mainsheet

Apex, LS, XLS, ??? I find Sta-Set too stiff through my dual fiddle block 5 part end boom mainsheet that has 110 feet of line that needs to be fed out in a hurry. I have an L-36 which is wood so we are always careful when gybing to bring the line all the way in and then let it out. I wanted something that would play out easily as this can take way too long to do. There are no winches as everything is just arm strength so I am thinking strength cannot be much of an issue and stretch is a good thing with a wood boom -- up to a point or course. I race the boat in classic boat races. We have been doing some beer can races for practice.

I was advised to get single braid 12 strand and bought Regatta braid and it just snags on everything. I don't know where because the lifelines have spectra braid over them, the coamings are covered with teflon tape and all the bolt heads in the tiller are carefully filed smooth. Still the sheet came back with a 4 inch string hanging out the side and a bunch of smaller pulls. So, I returned it and am now wondering what to get. Apex is a 12 strand and may be what I want but will I have the same problem? I am looking at 7/16 line just so it is nice on the hands but not too big and heavy. Maybe simple LS would be just fine, certainly strong enough. Not sure if it will play out nicely though.

I have searched the past posts and it doesn't look like this topic has been addressed.

Help would be appreciated.

Allen
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  #2  
Old 06-29-2009, 10:14 PM
Brion Toss Brion Toss is offline
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Default Smooth needs smooth

Hello,
Apex is a fall-protection rope, and as such it will be too elastic for anything but a mooring line. Regatta Braid really is the best rope for your application, with the current configuration, but the same things that make it so, also make it vulnerable to snagging. It just doesn't do to say that the bolt heads are filed smooth so snagging is a mystery; something is grabbing those yarns, and it can be treated.
Another option is a 3:1/6:1 purchase made from 3/8" Sta-Set. This will run smoothly through the same size blocks, go out and come in 40% faster when you need that, and come in with 20% more power when you need that.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss
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  #3  
Old 06-29-2009, 11:33 PM
allene allene is offline
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Default

Thanks for the reply. The 6:1/3:1 is an idea I will seriously consider.

Some comments:
1) The apex I was talking about is 1% stretch at 10% load which is less than Regatta braid
http://www.samsonrope.com/index.cfm?...rope=87&inst=1 I see now that I should have specified that it was a Samson rope as were the other two I am considering. You are talking about the NE rope apex.
2) I agree that the Regatta was catching on something. Maybe I would be able to figure out what it was catching. Afterall, I did that 3 times already and fixed those things. But, 4 strikes and it is out. I am done fooling with it. I have had this boat for 20 years and never had any problems like that with the sta-set even without fixing all the things I fixed to try and make the regatta braid work. But then again the sta-set has its problems.

The one issue I have on the two speed line is that we really like the 5:1 with the line you work coming off the boom. Also, there are 7 sheaves in a 6:1/3:1 and only 4 in my setup. It is not clear that half as much line running through almost twice the number of blocks will run much more smoothly. However, it will go twice as fast and will give more power and both of these are good things for sure.

Thanks again for the help and the suggestion.

Allen
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  #4  
Old 06-30-2009, 05:56 AM
Brion Toss Brion Toss is offline
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Default Oh

Hi again,
Oh that Apex. Samson adds Spectra to the mix, hence the lower stretch. Likely as pick-vulnerable.
As for the two-speed configuration, you can rig 3:1/6:1 to have the lead come off the boom, in which case it will have only 5 sheaves, and those can be quite smooth-running. But even with the lead off the deck you might have a lot less friction than your current setup; much depends on bearing quality and relative rope size. I haven't seen the boat, but I usually would prefer the from-deck version, as it usually gives a handier belay.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss
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  #5  
Old 06-30-2009, 08:10 AM
allene allene is offline
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Two lines coming off the boom. Two horn cleats? Interesting. I have not considered that. Not quite sure how that would work. I have seen the 7 sheave arrangement but not a 5.

Here is a page dedicated to my boat if you are interested: http://L-36.com/papoose.php
You may notice a block near the cockpit sole with a cam cleat. I use that when day sailing. When racing we bypass that and use the horn cleat. The trimmer runs the line around the horn cleat to provide some friction so he can hold the sheet and make his adjustments. In other words, we do not cleat off when racing. A bit of explanation on that. In SF bay it is typically so windy and we typically have a lot of sail up. We use the main to keep the boat under target heal. We basically put a big bubble in the main and the main trimmer has to constantly play the sheet.

Anyway, sounds like Apex is out if it will be similar to Regatta. That leaves Samson LS or XLS. If you have an opinion on that selection I am all ears.

Thanks so much for your advice.

Allen
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  #6  
Old 07-04-2009, 04:24 AM
Brian Duff Brian Duff is offline
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Default

any single braid will be delightful running throguh the blocks easily. Oh- don't use double blocks in a mainsheet, use fiddles or singles.that will help too.

use polyester if you want that simple all white look ( or are poor ).

use swiftcord, apex, salsa, conception, racing sheet, if you can afford a dyneema/polyolifin blend and like that Christmas tree look.

a fine tune is likely not needed for your boat unless you have laminate mainsail. plain dacron is crude enough to just use the major tackle to control.

cheers!
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  #7  
Old 07-09-2009, 11:30 AM
allene allene is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brion Toss View Post
Hi again,
...
As for the two-speed configuration, you can rig 3:1/6:1 to have the lead come off the boom, in which case it will have only 5 sheaves, and those can be quite smooth-running...
Fair leads,
Brion Toss
I have mocked up adding a block to my fiddle blocks and everything runs smoothly so I am getting close to implementing this with the 3:1/6:1 coming off the boom. I am settling on 5/16 XLS as it seems to run smoothly and does not have the pick issue. The size seems like a good compromise between something large enough to grab and small enough to run free. Half way between the 1/2" I had and the 3/8" you suggested.

My remaining question is how to cleat it for a race situation. For cruising, I will use the existing horn cleat for one end and the existing turning block and cam cleat on the cockpit sole for the other end. For racing we don't use the turning block as it is just too slow, which is why I happen to have two ways to cleat the sheet right now. For the new setup, one end can go to the main horn cleat but what about the other end? Should I add a second cleat or perhaps a pair port and starboard in addition to the main centrally located one.

Allen

Last edited by allene : 07-09-2009 at 11:34 AM. Reason: clarify the meaning
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  #8  
Old 07-11-2009, 04:18 PM
Brion Toss Brion Toss is offline
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Default Huh?

Hi again,
Not clear at all on what you mean. Is there a way you could post a drawing? In any case, there should be no ends at all; the purchase's rope is formed into a grommet, with a constant-diameter splice. Looking forward to seeing a drawing or picture.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss
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  #9  
Old 07-11-2009, 09:41 PM
allene allene is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brion Toss View Post
Hi again,
Not clear at all on what you mean. Is there a way you could post a drawing? In any case, there should be no ends at all; the purchase's rope is formed into a grommet, with a constant-diameter splice. Looking forward to seeing a drawing or picture.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss
Thanks so much for replying to my posting. This is really driving me crazy.

Well no ends, that is an interesting addition. That solves one problem I was wondering about.

The question I have remains that, spliced together or not, there are two parts of the line that come off the boom that need to be secured to hold the boom in. Right now I have a horn cleat and a turning block-camcleat. With my 5:1 I use one or the other of these and with the 3:1/6:1 it is possible for me to use both but that would make some things difficult it would seem. Here is what I have now.
http://l-36.com/newstuff5.JPG (please excuse the mess, this was just before I painted the cockpit and added new scuppers)
http://l-36.com/traveler/Traveler1.jpg
http://l-36.com/traveler/Traveler2.jpg

And here is the sketch you requested:
http://l-36.com/3161.gif


Remember, the goal is to be able to pull the two lines hand over hand with the lines coming off the boom similar to the motion of hosting a sail. I also need to be able to play the sheet from a rail position. We like to have it wrapped half way around a cleat when we do that. That little bit of friction is just right for controlling the line.

The standard solution I think involves a Harken 402 but for a number of reasons I don't like that. A possible solution is for me to make a similar piece of hardware modified for my boat layout but that would mean giving up on my goal of having the lines come off the boom.

Allen

Last edited by allene : 07-12-2009 at 07:55 AM. Reason: added sketch
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  #10  
Old 07-13-2009, 04:42 PM
allene allene is offline
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Default

Here are some more pictures that I took today to add to my previous reply.

First, the day sailing cleating arrangement:
http://l-36.com/ms1.jpg -- this is what I use most of the time.

The racing cleat:
http://l-36.com/ms2.jpg -- actually, we almost never cleat if off but just put a 1/4 turn around the bottom of the cleat and play it from the rail.

The 3:1/6:1 boom side blocks (not sure about the connection that I have mocked up with the white spectra webbing):
http://l-36.com/ms4.jpg

The 3:1/6:1 cleated off using existing cleats:
http://l-36.com/ms3.jpg

Hope this makes it clear what I am trying to do. I am very uncomfortable using the existing cleating arrangement but can't think of something better.

Allen
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