Reef clew upgrade / details

[atmarineservices]

In the processs of going over every detail and structial component of a Flicka 20, the old reefing clew lines are led to a sheave at the end of the boom, and to the gooseneck. In conemplateing adding cheek blocks and halyard exit plates for a more fair lead on the sail when reefing, how much on a pratical level is this upgrade? Is there any problem with chaffe internally with the 4:1 outhaul tackle as long as everything is located properly?

Question #2 As far as reviciting the trysail arangement for this boat / rig, would it be accecptable to use the same reef clew lines as an atachment for the trysail clew, assuming that there was a peice of rope lashing around the boom / reef line to keep it going into the sheave fair and with out chaffe? Any input would be greatly appreciated, thanks!!

[Brian Duff]

1: do not move the reef sheave forward. End of the boom is better. the lead is fair becasue the deadend goes around the boom, then through the clew, then on to the boom end as and outhaul.

2: as said before. the trysail IS NOT sheeted to the boom, but straight to the deck. And really, on a 20' sloop a trysail is probably not needed, a triple reefed mainsail is fine.

[Brion Toss]

Hi there,
I must disagree about that reef clew lead; the vectors at boom end mean a lot of outhaul load and little downhaul load. I have pictures of boats under way with the end-boom setup, and it isn't pretty. Manufacturers like end-boom because it simplifies their work, but it isn't good geometry. Selden's single-line setup puts so much strain on the internal cars that they were breaking under the loads, and had to be beefed up. And they still need a serious winch load to suck the sail down. Why do this, when a properly-placed clew block makes everything easier? Kinder to the sail, too.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

[Brian Duff]

While the reef line, when moved forward, may hold the sail down closer to the boom, I still do not feel that overall this system is better. The biggest problem with any sheaves for reefing positioned forward of the clew is that the sail can only be reefed on one tack safely. Many times sailing on boats with that set up we have had a problem of either the sail jamming in the sheave/reef line , or if the operator of the winch didn't notice then the sail gets ripped. Leading the reef line correctly, as we have discussed here before, can alleviate this problem, but a rigger cannot be sure that this will be done every time. i guess this can still happen even with end boom lead reef lines...

With the end of boom lead, the clew may float up off the boom some, but this has always been acceptable to me. On some boats the owner and I decided that fitting a sail tie through the new reefed clew ring around the boom was a good safety, but the process of putting this strop in doesn't seem all that safe. Using low stretch high strength dyneema core reef lines will minimize chafe and maximize retention of sail shape, even with deeply reefed sails.

...

[Ian McColgin]

Two winkles that are perhaps more relevant to normal sails than to kevlar blades:

Many rig the clew line coming up from one side of the boom, through the cringle, and down to a cheek block on the other. This is supposed to gather the sail. Actually it interferes with a nice set. I rig the line rising from the same side as the block and just a bit ahead of it. If the start is abaft the cheekblock, it may foul under the cheekblock when slack. Anyway, up it goes, through the cringle and back down to the cheek block, crossing the leech on the way down. This is no problem as the reefing clew line lies out of the way when slack and the leech falls out of the way when the reef's set. Doing it this way allows the sail to take a nice clean bunt with the reef cringle pulled down nice and snug to the boom with minimal line in the air. While one might think this sets better if you reef when on the tack with the reef line to weather, it actually does not matter as you reef with the sail luffing anyway.

Secondly, on many boats the geometry is such that if you just peak the boom up a couple of feet before reefing (another reason the topping lift fall should be near the halyard) and snug in the clew after the tack is set, then the foot will tighten rather nicely when the lift is eased.

G'luck.

[atmarineservices]

Just to add to the mix, I have been getting mixed feedback regarding the sheeting location of the trysail. I am going to have a dedicated trysail, as the main has only 2 reefpoints. This hoists on a seperate track. As far as sheet leeds are concerned, is it unwise to sheet this to the end of the boom via the first reef line? This is the line that will not be used, as the seacond reef will be in. What are the disadvantages and advantages of this setup? Thanks!!

[Brion Toss]

Hi again,
First, although it might seem convenient to sheet your trys'l to the boom end, it would probably be a bad idea. The address below gives good sheeting diagrams, including for storm trys'l. Other sources I have seen recommend sheeting to the boom, but the numbers I get for possible sheet loads seem awfully high; I'd rather bring the loads to very stout blocks on deck. That way you are not adding unseemly loads to the boom, nor are you attempting to rig said sail to the boom in conditions that make it difficult to lie down without hanging on.
As for the reef clewlines, I haven't been able to figure out how to append the photo's I have to this site (compression is not happening). Maybe another time. Meanwhile I agree with Ian that the deadend and clew block should be on the same side, with the former being just aft of the stretched-out clew, and the latter several inches aft, to form a good angle. No problems with pinching or crushing, as the bunt goes outside the tackle.
As for lashing the clew to the boom, this certainly works, but it only accomplishes what geometry can, at the cost of personal risk.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

http://www.usna.edu/SailingTeam/trai...ilconfig4x.pdf

[Ian McColgin]

One more stray thought: The trisail has rather limited utility, especially compared to "winter sails" that might be about the area of your regular sails at their deepest reef and that reef down from there. This gives you a sail that will do some work in those awkward in between winds that a boat like my old Granuaile (an LFH Marco Polo) would work in - Strong Gale up to Violent Storm (Forces 9 - 11, winds mid forties knots to over sixty). Most boats are ill-equipped to do much except hang on in such winds and the trisail does little to advance the cause. The ability to carry on with "winter sails" gives you some range.

If I could not have both, I'd have winter sails and no trisail, relying in that extremis on series cone drogues if I could afford movement to leeward and a parachute type sea anchor if I had to hang on.

I should say that my only experience with a trisail was a fitting out experiment in a Strong Gale (Force 9) on a 35' ketch and it could be that the wind was not enough to really give the trisail a fair try. It was hard to handle off the wind and even up to a close reach it was actually more comfortable under bare poles than with tri and storm jib. She could not do anything to weather with the tri and was more comfortable balanced into a bare-pole heave-to which is a bit nicer than just lying ahull. That was that boat and every boat is different. But the extra gear of a trisail is pretty far down my wish list.

G'luck

[atmarineservices]

Thanks for the input Ian. As of know, I have a new main, with 2 reefpoints, then the next step is going to be the trysail. I know that this will rareley get used, but that is what I am planning on, an issurance measure only. As you know, this is a Flicka 20, so storage is at a premium. I will have a heavy air jib, or a step from my working jib to the storm jib. This will have reefpoints in it, as well as hanked on. Anybody have any suggestions for hanked on sails with reefpoints? I will have the working jib with reefpoints, then the heavy weather jib, with a potential reefpoint. Any input? Thanks!!