StaLok and Norseman blues

[Gordon Dove]

Hello All,

Synopsis: Are my swageless fitting blues down to weird Wire?

I'm trying to replace a couple of stays whilst cruising in Brazil. As is probably not uncommon, I'm using a Norseman Stemball at the top and a StaLok stud at the bottom.

The first problem I had was with the Norseman, I did a beautiful cut with a hacksaw, and measured everything exactly with a vernier gauge, but after wrapping the cone, it still looks like a thistle, not the ends in line with wire result I'm supposed to get. I can put the fitting together, but when I take it apart for inspection, the wire jumps loose, it isn't fixed as appears to be the case in the various guides and videos on the web.

On to the StaLok. The first problem I have here is that as I re-lay the wire, the cone gets pushed out the end. Even if I start with the cone half an inch deep, by the time I've got the wires straight, the cone is 3mm off the end of the centre core. I've been experimenting with a test piece and even if I hold it in place with a socket, I can't get near to the correct end position.

I think I'm going to have to find a local rigger to help me with this, but I'd like to understand what is happening here. If my cone gets force out, and normally it isn't, I have to wonder if the wire is too hard, so it isn't gripping, or maybe there isn't as much pre-bend in the strands as usual, so I need to wind it further than would be normal.

I can re-lay the wire without the cone, so I know there no problem with the unlaying of the wire rope.

Anyway, all thoughts and suggestions gratefully received.

For the record, the wire is 8mm 1x19 sourced by the local marina. I don't know at this point, and probably I should, whether it is 316 or 304. I've checked the cone sizes are correct. I also wish I knew about Brion's video when I ordered the parts, but with delivery times in Brazil being in Months ( honestly), that isn't an option right now.

Gordon

[seawolf]

Gordon,
I re-rigged my Columbia 29 using all sta-lok terminals and did not experience any of the issues that you are having.
As recommended on Brion Toss's video, I used crazy glue to keep the cone in position while tightening down the fitting. When re-opening to inspect, the cone stayed in place and the wire formed well around the cone. All that was left was to put in some silicone and some loctite on the threads and secure the fitting again.
Try a couple of drops of the crazy glue on the cone and see if this helps.
Bob

[Gordon Dove]

As planned, I got a local rigger to demonstrate how to fit the StaLok for me. I don't have any Portuguese, so this was purely watch and learn.

First of all, he closed the cone up a bit with a pair of pliers. After opening the strands and inserting the cone, he then did the re-lay by means of a pair of pliers and a lot of violent twisting action. The cone still tried to escape, so he hammered it back in with a small socket and hammer. After adding the former and some exuberant spanner action, he opened it up again and I have to admit it looked pretty much exactly like the 'normal' pictures I've seen of a correctly fitted StaLok. A generous amount of Sika 291 and some even more exuberant spanner action and he was done.

He had a quick look at the Norseman I'd done an initial assembly on and pronounced it good, added Sika and once more an exuberant amount of tightening (cringe).

My conclusions from all this are that a) the local riggers don't have a magic formula for this wire. b) I was right to at least want to do the job myself, c) I should seriously consider getting the stays redone when I get to somewhere with better wire, d) He spurned my loctite, but I'm pretty sure there is plenty of Sika on the threads, so opening them again could be interesting and e) at around four dollars US, I probably got what I paid for .

[Gordon Dove]

Hi Seawolf,

Thanks for the tip, I'd tried locktite on the side of the cone, but being a bit timid, just a blob, and I think there is probably far too much air around for locktite to do it's thing properly. Crazy glue it is.

As I said in my original post, if I'd know about Brion's video, it would have been a great investment. I'd looked at a number of other guides, but it looks like I missed the good one.

[Ian McColgin]

There is something I'm missing in the descriptions of the problems. I've been using Stayloc and Norseman fittings since 1983 without trouble. Maybe it's that I get it about using my wire spike to unlay and then relay the outer layer. Maybe something else. Certainly never used Crazy Glue and I think that if you need it, something else is badly wrong. I am hoping that Brion can diagnose at a distance, but this sounds troubling.

G'luck

[Robbie.g]

Although i have not had problems with the cone slipping, may be the cone and wire don't match (imp cone/metric wire??), or the wire is indeed the 'cheap stuff' and there could be a tolerance issue there ..
There are a couple of the things i do that you may find of use. these are mostly to avoid picking up a strand, which is a fairly common problem.
After the cone is inserted and the wires reformed around the cone bring the top part of the fitting down to hold the wires in place, equally spaced etc. then file the outermost sharp edges off the wire, this combined with a small amount of lube in the former part of the fitting helps heaps.

Cheers
Rob

[Brion Toss]

Hi there,
Let's start with those Norsepeople. Is this right-laid wire? If so, screwing the terminal together will tend to want to unlay the yarns. It can be moderated, if not completely prevented, with some careful filing of the yarn ends, and at times I've resorted to bending the yarns in towards the core -- gently, not exuberantly -- to help the start.
Unfortunately, even left-laid wire can deform upon assembly, in this case ending up over-laid above the wedge. But it's a much rarer problem which is why left-laid wire is much preferable to right-laid with this type of terminal.
If the yarns aren't lying fair above the wedge, they sometimes aren't lying fair below it, and that is a structural issue, so please sight down the wire, and make sure there are no proud yarns.
Sta-Loks have that little former inside, and its reason for being there is to avoid deformation during assembly; the yarns hit the former, and it stays put while the terminal rotates around it, so the yarns go straight into their bend without wanting to lean to either side. In practice this works better with left-laid wire than right-laid, but both are generally okay.
The wedge, though, because the yarns aren't far enough past it to lay back up and thus trap it, needs to be controlled to keep it from popping off. Much depends on the diameter of the core, as this determines how well the wedge fits. Hence the recourse to super glue and crimping. You can accomplish the same thing with skill, but it is tricky, and usually not required. In any event, violent twisting action should not be part of the equation, because that can lead to things like nicked/deformed/galled yarns, as well as deformation of the standing part.
Your rigger got things to look right, but the means he employed -- forcing the terminal into submission -- by definition were not right, because these terminals shouldn't require that kind of force.
This is not to say that you have a damaged rig, but I would recommend a very close look before calling it good. Maybe by a nice, placid rigger.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

[Gordon Dove]

Well Thank You one and all. I spent a few days researching and searching before my original post, but the responses here have given me much more assistance.

I did my other two StaLoks myself, and whilst still not easy, they were possible without recourse to violence; the tip about superglue that Seawolf relayed made a massive difference, and probably a bit more practice helped a bit as well.

Ian, I unlaid using a small screwdriver, the local rigger, pliers and a single twist. I'm pretty sure my unlaying didn't do any harm as the wire would relay without the cone to it's original position without too much trouble.

Robbie.g, the cones are 8mm/5/16ths, so they must be better for one than the other. I did check the size a few times. StaLok helpfully etch it on the side of the cone. The fit is not loose, but certainly not tight.

Brion, thank you also for a very comprehensive post. My wire is right lay as you intuited, I guess that is why experiences vary so much.
The wire that the local guy did is an aft lower ( I have a cutter rig, two spreaders; uppers, intermediates, fore and aft lowers, twin (evil ) backstay, running backstays and fore and inner fore stays), so I'll get it checked at the first place I get too where I can rely on the riggers, and carry spare wire and terminals in the mean time. I guess it wouldn't harm to give it a quick extra stretch (25% UBS) when I'm tuning and give it an extra dose of frequent inspection.

Thank you once again for all the kind advice. Time for more fixing things in exotics places