adding runners for staysail

[buckborough]

this query concerns a 42' sloop designed during the cca era to which i am considering adding a staysail. so, in addition to the staysail stay, i must add runnings backstays. what about those running backstays? can they be fiber - one of those new high strength low stretch uv resistant lines? which one? and what about the tensioning apparatus? i had thought to use a four part block and tackle arrangement with cam type stopper shackled (or similar) to the lower end of the stay. do you think i could get enough tension on the stay without taking the purchase to a winch? should the tackle have more parts? or should i consider some other type of tensioning arrangement - something simple and robust? thank you kindly for your thoughts on the matter.

[Paul Seamons]

Here's what I did on my 42' cutter:
Hi modulus running backs extend from the mast to within four feet of the deck - HD thimble spliced in the end.

Then, when needed, I tie another line (1/2") onto the thimble, lead through a snatch block mounted on a padeye on the sidedeck and tension with the (self tailing) windward jib winch. No blocks needed When I don't need the stays'l, the running backs just get lashed againet the mast out of the way.

[osteoderm]

You may find, as many others have, that you only end up really needing your runner about 20% of the time.
Seen plenty of HM fibre runners around; light, flexible, and a little less chafe on the sails. Have delivered Swans with runners rigged as the last poster mentions; works well enough, but I'd rather not tie up a winch.
More typically I've seen 4:1 purchases on the runner tails, with cams on the lower fiddle blocks. Quick and easy to use, but those loooong rope tails can be a pain to handle and stow.

[Brion Toss]

Hello,
I prefer taking the line to a winch whenever possible, as block-and-tackle simply cannot apply sufficient tension to the forestay, and besides, taking up and overhauling is a bother. At our shop, we usually use covered HM rope, and strip the tail out for the last couple of fathoms or so. The uncovered tail is inserted in a length of Regatta Braid, sufficiently far that the HM inside is multiple times around the winch before the load comes on. The Regatta Braid is long enough to take the runner right forward, yet still have an end in the cockpit. There are some tricks to getting this right, but that's the broad outline.
We have found that winches don't tend to get tied up; if you are sailing with Jib and forestays'l, it's more than likely to be in conditions that don't require runners at all, so there'll be minimal choreography scenarios. And of course in heavy weather, the Genoa will be furled, leaving both winches free. Nonetheless, it's best if there are primary and secondary winches available in the cockpit.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

[Bob Pingel]

I am interested in the details of this covered HM to regatta braid "splice".

I assume that the HM cover tail is just deeply tucked into the regetta braid and librerally stitched in place. Do you serve/whip the end of the regatta braid on to the covered HM? I would think it would be difficult to tuck the regatta braid into the covered HM.

What sort of diameter ratios are we talking about? e.g. 5/16" HM into 3/8" regatta braid?

This topic is mostly cosmetic, as the regatta braid is never really loaded, but just used to tow the HM tail back to the winch.

Thanks,

Bob

[osteoderm]

Brian,

Any opinion on a 2:1 taken to a winch through a beefy cam or lockoff-equipped block? Any other caveats?

[Brion Toss]

Originally Posted by Bob Pingel

I am interested in the details of this covered HM to regatta braid "splice".

Hi Bob,
We first determine how long the HM line needs to be. We want about 3 turns on the winch, plus a bit of tail, before any load comes on.Then we locate where the block will bear on the HM when it is set up, then deduct for constructional stretch, and strip the cover somewhat forward/above of where the bearing point will be. So the core is exposed from just above the block to the end of the HM.
Then we bury the HM into the Regatta Braid about a foot past the HM cover bury, and whip the Regatta down.
As for sizes, it's whatever Regatta will accept the size HM we use, and of course this is in turn determined by the size of the forestay, and the vectors.
Fair leads,
Brion

[Brion Toss]

Originally Posted by osteoderm

Brian,

Any opinion on a 2:1 taken to a winch through a beefy cam or lockoff-equipped block? Any other caveats?

Hi there,
2:1 makes a lot of sense, as it is easy to overhaul, yet doubles your power, which is another way of saying that it halves the load on the winch. And if you have a separate anchor point for the block and the deadend, it will distribute the load on deck better. Oh, and of course it gives you the option of detaching the deadend, turning the purchase into 1:1, for easier stowage. This was/is the common arrangement for runners with Highfield Levers. That said, I tend to reserve 2:1 for larger boats, where the loads justify the extra purchase.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

[Bob Pingel]

Originally Posted by Brion Toss

Hi Bob,
We first determine how long the HM line needs to be. We want about 3 turns on the winch, plus a bit of tail, before any load comes on.Then we locate where the block will bear on the HM when it is set up, then deduct for constructional stretch, and strip the cover somewhat forward/above of where the bearing point will be. So the core is exposed from just above the block to the end of the HM.
Then we bury the HM into the Regatta Braid about a foot past the HM cover bury, and whip the Regatta down.
As for sizes, it's whatever Regatta will accept the size HM we use, and of course this is in turn determined by the size of the forestay, and the vectors.
Fair leads,
Brion

It sounds like the HM cover is never exposed. The part between the block and the runner is stripped, and the rest if covered by the regatta braid. What purpose does the cover serve? the only benefit I see is increased friction between the hm core and the regatta braid.

Bob

[Brion Toss]

Originally Posted by Bob Pingel

It sounds like the HM cover is never exposed. The part between the block and the runner is stripped, and the rest if covered by the regatta braid. What purpose does the cover serve? the only benefit I see is increased friction between the hm core and the regatta braid.

Bob

Hi again,
I wasn't clear, apparently. The HM is uncovered until just forward of the deck block, and the Regatta Braid extends just past that point. The HM is covered from there up to the tang. Put another way, if you were to look at the runner, starting at the tang, you'd see an eyesplice in covered HM angling down and aft towards deck. A foot or two above deck the covered rope would disappear inside a length of Regatta Braid. Just past where it entered, the cover would be removed. Clearer?
Fair leads,
Brion