Oh My - what a drama - new swaging failure

[ribbony]

We have been taking our new wire and fittings, cut and ready to swage to a rigger to get them swaged. It has been a challengine time to do it one or two wires at a time while the mast was up on the boat, on the mooring, but we got there. Then the rigger drops a bombshell. The swaging press has not been compressing enough and he had a recent fitting fail in service (not ours) and told us not to use our rig until he gets back to us. He is having some destructive testing done to assess structual integrity.

We took the initiative and got on to the manufacturer of the swaged products who replied to our email promptly. They gave us the sizes for the swaged fittings after swaging. I checked our against this. The specification for 5/16" wire is a swaged diameter of 14.30mm (tolerance +0.00 & -0.20), our fittings measure 14.75, 14.90, 14.85, 14.65, 14, 95, etc etc.

All fittings were double pass swaged and if they are swaged again that makes them 3 passes. The engineer at the manufacturer said that 3 passes was not ideal and sometimes because the metal has been compressed twice then it may not want to move (flow) much a third time and may tend to spring back.

If anyone can give us some experienced advice on this it would be much appreciated. We kinda feel that our new rig already has integrity issues and don't know where to go from here. http://briontoss.com/spartalk/images...s/confused.gif

[Brion Toss]

Hello,
We are all very sorry to hear that your swages aren't, so to speak, up to spec. And glad to hear that the rigger is being proactive about it -- the world benefits when we take responsibility for things. Assuming that your measurements are correct, there's really no realistic choice but to start anew. Your rigger might, understandably, prefer to have you get a third pass; this is not a good idea. At best you might be able to cut the longest wires down to make shorter ones, and then make new longer ones.
It is very difficult to keep this type of machine in spec at the best of times, and my experience is that they are always more fatigue-vulnerable than other terminals, so I hope you will consider rotary swages, or compression fittings instead.
I understand that you have a lot of labor into this. Remember, please, that what you have done thus far has no bearing on how to proceed from here.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

[ribbony]

Thank you for your wise words, you are spot on, especially with your last statement !

As the rigger was swaging only and we bought and provided the rest of the gear we are a bit uncertain as to what will happen.

I do not know of anyone who rotary swages in Sydney ?

Swageless - well in hindsight some foresight would have been wonderful.

[Asylum]

Originally Posted by ribbony

Thank you for your wise words, you are spot on, especially with your last statement !

As the rigger was swaging only and we bought and provided the rest of the gear we are a bit uncertain as to what will happen.

I do not know of anyone who rotary swages in Sydney ?

Swageless - well in hindsight some foresight would have been wonderful.

Don't know who did the original work but the gentlemen below are both excellent riggers with very good reputations. I'm sure that one of them can advise you and assist in getting things done properly. They'll know who does rotary swages around Sydney. If for some reason they can't help there are a couple more riggers around Pittwater who I know to do good, reliable work.

Good luck
RoyB; Hobart

Bruce Clark - Yacht Rigger
Sydney Rigging Specialists
5 Wellington St Rozelle 2039
(02) 9555 4277 0414 667 773

Joe Henderson - Yacht Rigger
42 Edwin Street Mortlake 2137
(02) 9736 3626 0419 848 348

(Joe checks in here from time to time, he may see your message)

[ribbony]

Given that the rigger did the swaging, we supplied all the hardware and labour, it would be interesting to hear how other riggers would handle a similar situation if the swaging they did was not to spec after 2pass swaging ? What would you be prepared to provide to remedy the situation, hardware, wire ? I know you can not speak for another rigger, but what you would do at least gives us some idea as to what is fair to ask for.

Thanks Roy for the reccomended riggers. We needed a special swage end for the furler and rang around Sydney to find that SRS had one in stock, Bruce swaged it on the wire and did a beautiful job and that is part of our comparison to assess the other swages against.

[Brian Duff]

if the swages don't spec, there are three possiblities. The wire is large, the fittings are thick, or (most likely) the machine is wore out. most rig shops i have been at NEVER have calibrated or even check their swages. thats why i use products from Brooks rotary swager (sailing services)

we find MANY rig sets from local shops to be incorrectly made, and what a dissapointment for the owners, who hire us to inspect a recently done job, to find that disaster. Not to mention the political mess that makes for me being the 'bad guy' (in the eyes of local peers)

oy

lesson learned - go to your boat and check your swages!

[ribbony]

The rigger has said that it is believed that the swaging press has a stretched bearing housing in the base and so the dye/s move laterally when the pressure is on. Might also explaing why we got a few bananas inthe batch of fittings done there.

The wire and fittings all fitted snugly when we put them togeather before swaging (firm push on fit).

He is keen to do the 3rd pass on the press when it is repaired .

[Brion Toss]

Hi again,
Bananas? If that rigger let those out of the shop, it seems like one more reason to suspect overall quality. And by the way, a third pass, in addition to hardening the wire, will likely make it lopsided, which calls for a fourth pass...
The machine was definitely way out of whack, which means that the swager kept swaging until it was so loose that wires started failing. This does not speak volumes in terms of quality control. There is not usually a big margin in rigging, and I offer this advice with sympathy, but I believe that the honorable thing for the rigger to do is either give you a new gang with the reconditioned machine, or give you a full refund, so you can seek out a better gang.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

[ribbony]

Not much progress has been made with the rigger. There is a very strong concensus out there that a 3rd pass is not a good idea, especially seen the rig is back on the vessel and a 3rd pass would be done cold, weeks after the first double pass. But, getting the manufacturer or the importer to state that in writing is proving a tough task. Putting words into writing is the support we would expect from them for a product that is engineered for load bearing applications. What we really need is for some hard copy of information that supports the idea that overworking the swage by multi passing it, is not a safe practice. With that we have a better chance of getting through the impasse that seems to exist at the moment.

Even if the riggers swaging machine gets repaired and another pass is attempted, will it come to spec on the third pass or is a fouth or more going to happen.

Thanks again for the feedback. Much appreciated.

[Asylum]

You should be able to go to sea with your new rigging without having any nagging doubts about whether the swages are going to crack or fail every time the breeze gets over 20 knots.

It seems to me that at this point the only way you can gain the confidence in your new rigging that you should have is to start over with another known-reliable rigger doing the swages properly.

I dunno about you mate but if it were me and I had the third pass done and had a few banana swages or anything that were less than perfect in the rigging I'd never achieve the peace and serenity that you ought to be able to. I'd be up on deck every 15 minutes with a magnifying glass and torch and I'd be thinking about die penetrant tests, etc. It's not worth it. Get it done right and then don't think about it any more. Get the rigger to compensate you for the wasted wire and fittings and his labor charge and start over. Talk to him and clearly express what you believe a fair settlement would be. Go to court if you have to. Don't worry about your wasted time, just get the job done right then do the installation again, it will be easier the second time :-)

I know you didn't ask for my advice and I apologise if you don't want it.

In my opinion one of the indispensable elements of safety at sea is having confidence in your boat. I try to ensure that my boat is always more seaworthy than I am. Anything that leads to less than full confidence should be fixed or changed. The potential consequences of structural failure are too serious to allow half-baked solutions.