Why not Spectra ?
 

In the quest to save a bit of weight aloft,make things work more efficiently and less streachy and maybe make maintince a bit more pleasent, why not replace the standing rigging on a 39' 16 ton Gaff Cutter built in 1903 with Yale Ultrex or some other comprable spectra line ?
It seems the stretch is only slightly more but it would be easy to get much stonger and even smaller diameter shroud with the ultrex therefore actually reducing strecth, and then one could cover the length of the line/splice/eye with a polyester cover (which is supplied in solid black, as well as many other colors) and maybe even paint the whole 'gang' as well to protect it further. For that matter why not use spectra lanyards as well, and specrtra bridles for the peak halyards.
just chasing down ways to make things lighter and easier to work with and maintain. Most blocks aloft and on deck are probably going to be switched out for harkens carbo series with wooden cheeks made up to help them fit in visually...

Edited : 10:50am
now that I think of it we usually use vectran for the runners on most boats, and I suppose it would be suitable here for shrouds, as well as for halyards and downhauls, and in all the tackles on board. I was only thinking spectra at first because I thought it might be more suitable for the halyards and lanyards and such than vectran (spectra seems to resist fatigue and chafe better where I have been using it). We would want to just buy whole spools that can be used for most the rigging on board....

Advice and thoughts are appreciated.

Why not Spectra ?
 

Dear Brian,

Why not spectra indeed!
For a while I have been thinking that the majority of classic boats could benifit from fibre rigging. Brion Toss raised this question a while ago in one of his Fairleads columns I think.

About ten years ago I was lucky enough to work from the begining on an IMS Maxi with a very open-minded project manager who was happy for me to spend some time and money on ways to use new fibres in the rig. (This was before Vectran, PBO or high grade Spectra was widely available here in Sydney) One of the things that was bothering us was the creep we would experience in the proposed Spectra core runners and checkstays. The standing backstay was not a worry.
I got over the majority of the creep by pre-stressing the runners to 5000kg and serving and coating them with the load still on. When they were fitted to the boat we had about half a percent elongation from fully loaded to just taut.

We tried Vectran, when we could get some, in the same configuration and the elongation was considerably less, about a quarter of a percent, but the stuff failed under load where it had taken a sharp bend around the leech of the main. Very exciting!

We never found a definitive reason for the failure but I reckon that a bundle of fibres, closely bound together and bent backwards and forwards is a prime candidate for compression and fatigue failure of some of the fibres. In fact now that I think about it, if you wanted to break some Vectran in the laboratory, that is how you could go about it! The uncertaity over the life and toughness of the stuff was the only thing stopping us from using it as diagonals. I did not like the idea of a jib clew thrashing the stays.

Having said that, I can see out of my loft window a pair of my runners that I made out of Kevlar core on the mizzen of a 60 year old classic ketch and they are in good condition after 10 years. There are also miles of fibre rigging around the world on things like radio masts etc. So who knows how long this stuff lasts?

I did a bit of experimenting (limited by time and money and the need to race the boat) with Salvagee strops during the Diagonals trials and I am glad to see Future Fibres have succesfully solved most of the problems I came up against.

After all the above, I like the idea of Vectran, PBO or high grade Spectra in a nice stable braid to accept the torsion put in by the seving, pre loaded and served for standing rigging and spans for a classic yacht.

I think you would have to be careful using drop-over eyes with anything other than Spectra due to the above failure mode, but maybe a looser serving will allow the fibres to slide over each other and take a fair stress during the initial shake down.

My mad South African mate in England has just put together a hard chine Mini transat type hull hull with Carbon spars and gaff rig using Kevlar core because no one wanted it and it was cheap (very good stretch characteristics though) and drop-over eyes and dead eyes and lanyards. Even with the added material for serving and coating it is still cheap and light and with correct re-enforcing at the hounds, stresses the carbon spars kindly without tangs or metal fasteners. Just as you do for timber spars.

Regards,
Joe Henderson

Yeah, I was thinking that the shrouds would have to be fitted to rings on a band around the masthead. It will clean things up a bit and keep that crushing of the unloaded loop lying undernieth the loaded sides compression from being a problem.
I will give it a go. This boat deserves the upgrade.
Thanks
Brian.

Why not spectra? 2
 

Dear Brian,

Glad to hear you are going ahead.
I can think of nothing but good reasons for doing it.
Keep in touch with how it goes, It will be fascinating to see how the gear performs.

Regards,
Joe Henderson.

An option
 

Hello,
We are currently working on a set of Vectran shrouds for a good-sized gaff schooner (carbon fiber spars, bronze deadeyes. Interesting project). It occurred to us that HM soft eyes would have a problem with compression ó these are very tight eyes, stacked ó so we made up wire grommetes, and spliced Vectran eyes to them, via linkplates. The linkplates also allow for easy replacement of damaged pieces.
Joe, I'd understood that "creep" would occur over time, regardless of how Spectra was preloaded; have you found otherwise? And Kevlar makes for great standing rigging; the reason your friend can get it so cheap is that it makes such lousy (fatigue-vulnerable) running rigging.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

Why not Spectra ?
 

Dear Brion,

How nice to have an owner with the vision and courage to break out of the wire rope standing rigging alley and allow you to explore other avenues. I am very jealous!

You are quite right. I should have written stretch or elongation instead of creep.

I did find that the nearer to the breaking load we got with the pre stressing the less creep crept into the equation. This is what I expected with constructional stretch but not with deformation of the material.
Maybe what we have been thinking of as creep, in the context of spectra, is just another manifestation of constructional stretch but at a higher percentage of breaking load.
It is a long time ago but it did occur to me that as I loaded the stuff up it seemed to give and hold in steps. Initially quite a lot of give then holding for a while then giving again as the load increased until the strain seemed to plateau as the load got to 75/80%.

All this is purely observational on my part, and I did not have the time to do a proper test and repeat and the dynamometer I was using could have had some error, so it is all open to challenge and query! not only that but the core I had to work with was not of the highest quality. ( I used to dream of getting hold of some Sampson Spectron 12!)

With some sense of frustration and in an attempt to get an idea of what was happening inside the material I left a pair of runners in the loft stressed to 80% of their break load over the christmas holidays and when I snuck back to look at them on new years day they had lost about 5% of the load and one pump on the Tirfor (about 15mm on the runners) set it back up.

In the end I was stressing the material to about 75% of the makers listed breaking load of the Spectra core, serving very tightly with Dacron V.B.cord and coating with polyurethane.

It all got a bit sobering when I thought long and hard about the consequences of a failure while my wife was putting on the serving and anyway Vectran had become available at a reasonable price so we did not have to keep scaring ourselves!

During the rigging program for the halyards on the maxi we came to the conclusion that the spectra jib halyards may have been stretching/ creeping during a beat because we were not stressing the material highly enough.

After a lot of buggering about with smaller and smaller rope which needed larger and larger covers to work in the clutches, we got rid of most of the elongation by using good old cheap, unfashionable, fragile kevlar in the straight runs and inserting spectra portions at the hounds and at the deck turning block and clutch. quite simple to do and it worked, we never broke a halyard in normal use, which probably means they were too big. The kevlar we used was actually some left over from Australia III's Fremantle A.C.campaign which was in the hundred or so assorted reels I bought when the rope makers were clearing their stock room.
I still have a reel of 12mm lurking at the back of the loft for that special job that is always just around the corner!

In regard to using vectran for drop over eyes, I wonder if inserting a short length of spectra at the top end for the eyes would be the way to go. It would mean that you wont have the ease of replacement inherent in your system, which I can see will be important with fibre shrouds, so maybe not.

Did you leave the cover on the Vectran?

Regards, Joe Henderson.

Ian McColgin
 

Ahoy gang,

It's great to see new developments.

The big question for folk like myself, who want to use things as long as possible:

Is there enough experience yet to determine how to inspect fibre stays for replacement prior to failure?

G'luck

Ian

References have been made to tightly serving the line and painting it with a polyurethane. I am supposing the serving is just to protect the line from chafe and uv, as opposed to keeping water out like with wire ?
I was planning on using a cover (common polyester braided line cover, like yales TST) over the shrouds, which after further thought will probably be of vectran as opposed to spectra.

I had considered machining some alum deadeyes so that we can get away with smaller lanyards, which I feared may split the original wooden ones...
Just as an interesting note I am planning to use harken carbo air blocks with 5/16" thick wooden cheeks to 'hide' them on the boat. probably maple for the cheeks, unless there are any other suggestions.

Thanks for the input and I will be sure to let you know how the job progresses.

Why not Spectra 4
 

Dear All,

I have no idea how long this tuff will last in standing rigging.

I know that fragile Kevlar lasted around the world on Rothman's runners, checkstays and upper diagonals, so who knows.

I suppose it will be up to us collectively, as a trade, to do the best job we can, try to second guess and pre-empt some of the more obvious failures and pitfalls and then back the work up with vigilant inspections when possible. Pretty much what we have all been trying to do for the past thirty or so years.

I pre-stressed and served more in an attempt to hold the elongation on the runners than any anti chafe measure.

In the end I just used Vectran in it's normal polyester cover.

I do think that service will be a good thing on fibre standing rigging. It's hard-ish exterior should guard against chafe from sheets and will let you know early if something untoward has happened to the stay. I think it is likely that you will see some distortion of the serving which will draw your attention to a potential problem. I also reckon it looks better than a bit of braided cover and it will be easier to keep ratlines in place.

I like the idea of the alloy deadeyes. We made some out of Tuphnol a while ago and they went ok. We made sure that the laminates of linen were aligned across the load paths etc. I imagine the load directions are pretty much the same as in a sheave with the pin taking the place of the lanyard etc. On the smaller stays rig we actually used some Main Marine Tuphnol sheaves and just drilled and scored some new holes for the lanyard, round off the lips of the sheave and it looks like a bought one..

The timber shelled modern block is a great idea and works really well. Lets you have all the fun of varnishing without the pain of friction-plus blocks. Our grandfathers would have used them like a shot if they had been available, same as most things.

Make sure you don't glue the block shut. You do not want to have to break the timber to dismantle and repair the block like I did. Who knew that a bit of Sika could end up costing me so much!

Regards,
Joe Henderson

Spectra with Deadeyes
 

A few questions on the modern ideas for traditional boats -

Are deadeyes/lanyards used for fore and back stays as well? I don't remember seeing them on traditional boats, but I also have not been looking for that detail. If not, what method is used for adjusting tension?

Anyone have a good source for deadeyes? I'd be interested in bronze or wood.

On a related subject, I saw some nice Lewmar blocks (on Brion's handy billy) that looked like they were made to accept small screws on the outside of the body. Is there any problem using these to attach wooden cheeks? Are you guys making your own cheeks or do you have a source?

Thanks,
-jak