nicopress standing rigging?
 

Hi all, I sail a Nor'Sea 27 which is due for a standing rigging update. The cost has pushed the idea into the back of my mind but the weather today brought it back to the forefront. Due to the cost of swageless terminals I've been hesitant but I really like the idea of being able to replace and maintain the rigging myself. This leads me to nicopress fittings as recommended on the Pardey's Storm Tactics video (for those of us who haven't yet learned to splice). My boat was made with 7/32 1x19 rigging and 3/8 turnbuckles (swaged terminals). I don't see 7/32 offered as an option in Nicopress. Should I upsize to 1/4" 7x7 and two or three Nicopress? Any suggestions, I'm after a bulletproof feeling of security. I've lost a headstay in the past in a blow and am determined that it won't happen again. Any advice for or against welcome. Thanks in advance,

Bill Oyster

please don't
 

Rather than monkey-rig up something with oversized soft wire and nicopresses, get a pro to expain and walk you through setting up a norseman fitting and use those. I find it bizzare that you are concerend about safety but are considering nicopresses. Plus, on a nice boat like a Norsea they will look awful, catch your pants every time you walk by, and detract from performance, resale value, and cause folks to question your sanity. If you are worried about cost, try to save money on labor (which you can do yourself) and not by using outdated and unsafe methods that are more suitable for telephone poles. I'd go to a good reliable rigshop and tell them you want to replace the gang yourself and that you want them to teach you how to install a norseman fitting. Then buy yourself some wire and some fittings and measure carefully and cut and seal and take your time and build yourself a new rig. If you have a furler on the headstay and are worried about norsemans untwisting, either get your headstay swaged or use the manufacturer's reccomendations. As an aside, I can say that we swaged most of the rigs that came through the shop for cost reasons, and this was on SF bay, where it blows like stink all the time, and I don't think we ever saw rig failures due to swage failure. Rigs usually fail because they have been neglected, a spreader fails, or the mast inverts; not because a swage fails. Ask your rigger, get the swaged measured to spec before you use it. But please - please - don't use nicopresses!

I appreciate the opinion and advice. Looks like there's no doubt where you stand on the issue! I may have to look at getting them swaged simply due to cost and based on your experience it doesn't seem to be a bad idea anyway. I'm guessing you're not a big fan of hand splicing either, especially with the softer wire? I only considered the Nicopress after seeing them recommended by the Pardy's and sold on the Brian Toss site. Then I read a review about various mechanical and swaged terminals. They were test breaking them on a hydraulic machine and attaching the standing end with two Nicopress clamps. The whole article was about how great the mechanical fittings were but didn't bother to mention the Nicopress which never failed and in fact weren't even considered. Anyway, I'm not one to turn a deaf ear to professional opinion and I take your comments seriously. Anyone else have an opinion for or against?

Don't do it...
 

I would also agree that good rotary swages or a conventional mechanical fitting (StaLok, Hayn, Norseman) would be far better on your boat.

I have not seen Brion recommending nicopresses for standing rigging...

Just my two cents,

Bob Pingel

Thanks Bob
 

You're right, Brion doesn't recommend them for standing rigging. Looks like I'll be swaging or saving up for mechanicals. Best of all I won't have to worry the "bizarre", "insane", telephone pole", "monkey rigged", "insane" connotations which apparently go along with Nicopress fittings! ;)

Larry's ears are burning
 

Hello,
First, poor Larry Pardey is probably regretting mentioning Nico's as an option. He's an ace splicer, but has also seen lots of boats ó mostly in England ó with nicopressed rigs. And they can work there, where the climate is mild, and the water low-salt, but they tend to fail at sea.
Further, they are designed for 6x or 7x wire, and adapting them to 1x19, though doable, is tricky; it is possible to get something like 100% strength with them, but only for a while. Plus we see problems with collapsed thimbles, poor fit in turnbuckles. So really, not the best for anything but their original intended purpose, which is halyard wire.
As for the alternatives, if you go with swages I prefer rotary swages, if the machine is in spec and run right. Otherwise Hayn or Sta-Lok.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

I'm suprised!

I thought nicopress swages were supposed to retain 100% of the strength of the wire and more if you use two. Has anyone seen them fail? Plus there is less risk of crevise corrosion compared to other swages.

Hello Surprised
 

The idea of using Nicropress fittings is to affix a wire which is around a thimble. It is the use of a thimble which degrades the ultimate strength of the end result. A thimble can collapse and the wire must have a very large thimble in order to approach the wire's maximum strength. with a swaged termination no thimble is necessary and maximum line strength is approached to the point of an effective 100% strength.

Good point. Thanks

More
 

Hello,
Even large, and large-radius thimbles will leave you with other problems: there is, to my knowledge, no improvement in preventing crevice corrosion; the terminals are designed to approach 100% efficiency on 7x19 wire, but you will need two for anything like that on 1x19, and then you are into the tricky work of getting an even load on both sleeves; and no matter what, you still have a snaggy, ugly terminal that is no more efficient than a swage, and not a lot cheaper. You can certainly use them, but I see them as being the wrong tool for this job.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

I feel compelled to respond to this thread after 6 years because when searching for "nicopress" and "standing rigging" the first two links on google bring you here (the first one indirectly). I'm not an expert, but I believe the nicopress fitting may have gotten the short end of the stick. Yes, they are ugly, but I believe they have a place on inexpensive boats where the owner would like to save money by doing his or her own rigging.

I called nicopress and I talked to a guy who is a sailor and he said the fittings are perfectly suitable for standing rigging and that the fittings are guaranteed to exceed the rated strength of the wire when properly installed. He stated he has several friends who use the fittings on their standing rigging and that the fittings are also used structurally on aircraft. He also said you need to use the copper or stainless fittings (not aluminum of course), that the plating needs to be correct for the wire type and the crimps need to be checked with a gauge to make sure they are within specification.

In my personal experience I've seen plenty of boats with these fittings on standing rigging in marinas, mostly plastic classics from the 60s with wire that looks like it could be original. Masts are still standing.

And what about england where they supposedly use nicopress more often? Are the winds really lower? I don't know, but looking at a wind map there are plenty of areas with 16 - 22mph winds today in the UK, higher than the 10kts here on the San Francisco Bay. How about the salinity? The map I'm looking at shows the salinity around england is average, and below average for most of the US coast. (see here: http://www.coas.oregonstate.edu/imag...alinitymap.jpg)

So it seems if you have a nice boat and/or are having your rigging professionally made, than swaged is the way to go. If your boat is crusty, you want to do it yourself and you are strapped for cash, then nicopress may be your man. I do not believe using nicopress fittings is a safety issue if properly done.

Disclaimer: I am not an expert in any way, shape or form. I have never replaced rigging on any boat I have owned and I clearly have no idea what I am talking about.

Data
 

Hi there,
The very helpful rep that I spoke with at Nico said that, while their terminals will break the wire in 6x and 7x constructions, they were less efficient in 1x19. The problem, as he put it, was that the yarns behave like the threads on a screw, so the terminals can slip. For this reason, you should never use Nicopress fittings as end-stops, as they don't hold at all well in that application.
I did not ask the rep about efficiency per se; that is, while the terminal might break the wire in a test, rather than slipping, I don't know if it weakens the wire, or by how much. Cable clamps, for instance, won't slip, when properly done, but weaken the wire by 20% or so. I am hoping that the rep might sign in here, to elucidate/correct all this.
Finally, 1x19 is reluctant to go around thimbles, and thimbles that are big enough in radius -- and which won't collapse under extreme loads -- can be too big to fit into yacht turnbuckles.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

Ok, so what about using 7x7 wire, one size up?

E.g. say a Coronado 25 with 3/16" 1x19 gets re-rigged with 1/4" 7x7 galvanized and copper nicopress:

-If the original rig was 316 the break strength goes from 4000lb to 6100 lbs, an increase of 50%
-If the original rig was 302/304 the break strength goes from 4700lb to 6100 lbs, an increase of 30%
-Assume 150ft of wire aloft, weight aloft goes up by just 4lbs
-If the nicopress reduces the wire strength by 20% it is still stronger than the original swaged 1x19

I imagine the break strength of the wire would not be reduced by a nicropress fitting, if it were then nicopress' claims would be erroneous. I could develop my own wire end that is only 1/9th as strong as the wire, but reduces the strength of the wire by 90% and still claim full break strength.

Either way, on a boat like a Coronado 25 a "proper" re-rigging can exceed the value of the boat. That doesn't make much sense in my book when there may be a much more economical option that is just as seaworthy.

Again, we're not talking about an Alerion Express, we're talking about boats that may not get re-rigged if the price is too high. This is a safety issue.

Mechanicals and Roller Furling
 

Hey Oyster,
I have used Norseman fittings for over 30 years with absolutely NO problems whatever. They are not that difficult to assemble but yes, it does help to practice a bit before you "go for it."

I installed roller furling back in 1998 and continued to use the Norseman fittings on the head stay and have never had anything come apart due to rotation.

Having said that--I did almost lose an eye a couple of years ago--while standing in a dinghy talking to someone one of his Sta Loks just went BANG and came within a hair of taking my eye. This fitting was on a hydraulic back stay and over time became unscrewed. It was just on its very last thread and I was "just there at that moment."

We reassembled the fitting and experimented a bit---what happened was that every time we pumped the hydraulic lever we could see the rod from the piston turning just a bit in the counter-clockwie direction and over time it produced just enough pressure on the fitting to gradually unscrew.

On this last re-rig I decided to "retire" the old Norseman fittings and try the Hayn Hi Mods. They are really easy to assemble. And, as I just discovered---really easy to disassemble and re-assemble.

My guess is that if you do a cost analysis of paying someone to build the swaged rig for you and the cost of "doing the mechanicals yourself" you might find it is not as expensive as you fear. Especially if you plan on keeping the boat for a long time. It is in the future re-rigs that you will save the money.
My recent re-rig cost 1500.00 us complete--buying all new Hi Mods and wire.

Good Luck
Ed Zacko

A bit more
 

Hi there,
First, the unscrewing you describe is most notable with Dyform backstays that are coupled with hydraulics. That's because both interior and exterior Dyform yarns are laid up the same way, and thus why Navtec expressly forbids this material being connected to hydraulic adjusters. 1x19, on the other hand, should be balanced enough that it will unlay a bit under load, then relay.
Also remember: correlation is not causation. Norseman (and Hayn, and all similar fittings) can come unwound. That's what LocTite is for.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss