to swedge or sta loc?
 

Brion, Steve and Tracy from Hannah here. Yes we are still alive and back in the states again. Hannah was sold a 2 years ago to an Austrian couple in New Zealand because our kid Nolan wanted to go to high school instead of home schooling. I know how could we do such a thing! Well Nolan is off to bigger and better places than high school now and Tracy and I are tired of watching the grass grow so we ordered a new boat last March and it has just started to be built in France and will be completed June 2013.

OK so here is my question and it probably has been asked a million times here. The builder wants to use swedging for the rigging and here we are getting this incredible new style of boat www.voiliers-boreal.com . I loved the sta locs you did on my last two boats what's your advice? I am making many changes on the Boreal 44 because I can as it is a semi custom boat but somewhere I need to draw a line in how much I ask for and list is growing longer and more expensive. What's best, Brion? Just give me a hard answer I can take it.
If your down this way(Hood River) come visit.
Steve Wrye and Tracy Willett
Formerly of SV Hannah
Now back on a new "RC Louise" again.

Dynex Duc rigging. Save the weight and the money. Plus you get more righting moment by decreasing weight aloft in the rig.

Dear Steve,

Your new yacht's builders may have factored-in a package from the mast builders that includes swaged fittings.

You can be no kinder to your wire standing rigging than specify StaLok fittings.

If you rush back to the future with the Dynex Dux route, insist on Dux with overbraid.

I think Brion has already posted somewhere on here about the imortality of the material !

Your new boat is worth every penny extra it will cost over just a bit of bare Dynex with some lanyards.

Regards,

Joe henderson.

Thanks Joe and Stumble,
Interesting indeed, A guy here in the Hood is building a 50 ft cat and mentioned he is using Dynex. I didn't take him serious and ignored his mentioning of material. See what happens when you get old and closed minded! I'm starting my reading on material and applications tomorrow and I will go over to the cat builder and talk Dynex. Brion and I talked some of using I think it was Spectra for safety lines back in 2007 before we left cruising, I did bring a lot of it with us and used it for many things. What is the difference between spectra and dynex? How does this Dynex hold up under intense tropical sun, we are tropical cruisers only too old for the high lats.
Thanks for your imput.

Generally Dynex Dux is significantly stronger and more abrasion resistant than spectra, in addition it is more stable in UV than spectra is.

The amount of information available is pretty significant, but the expert in applying it to standing rigging is Collegio Marine that first popularized it for use in standing rigging. Last I heard they were suggesting a replacement interval of 8 years in the tropics for uncoated Duc, and even longer with the coated stuff. Just note that it isn't steel, and has its own design issues, specifically creep. Which means that instead of sizing for working load, it is sized for creep, which means you get a rig that is 1/7 the weight, and generally 2-4 times as strong in breaking strength.

Swage or StaLok - reasons
 

Steve.. are you a cruiser ? then you "do it yourself".. your yacht builder cares nothing whatsoever about what you might have to repair at sea once you have taken delivery.

StaLok terminals permit repairs in the field... Swages are faster and more cost effective for the yacht builder so no wonder they want to use swages.

If you specify Sta Lok then I would disassemble every one of them and inspect them before taking delivery.. I just would not trust anyone else in installing these on my boat but me.. cerainly not in a production - for profit situation.

Furthermore... it is not uncommon to have swages aloft and staloks at the deck...
for lower weight aloft and since the swage is actually upside down whereas, a swage a deck level is rightside up where water and salt will penetrate and be trapped. Many cruising boats have both -- swages aloft and StaLok on deck.

W/ regard to synthetic line for cruising yacht rigging.. synthetic line is the realm of the
racer or weekend yachter who likes to support the marine industry with constant $$$ for repairs and refits.. Cruisers stay with simple, easy to find, low tech, low cost, long life ie: stainless steel rigging.
Good Luck
Mitch Witt
SAMS ams

Mitch,

What could be easier or faster to repair down island than a splice?

When I changed the rig on my boat it was actually cheaper to go with Dynex than rod, and comparable to wire. At whatever point I need to replace the line, it will cost a fraction of new cost, since the fittings are reusable.

Interesting stuff! I'll keep studying dynex, I have Colin Speedie as our consultant and will speak with him some on the subject also. It's great to have him on board as France is a long way away and he works well with Boreal, he speaks boat French.

I like the sticking with sta Locs, it is something I've done before and enjoyed it. I have 16 months before I have worry about doing rigging, just want to get as much out of the way as possible early. So I have time for more study on the subject.

Mitch,
Boreal is a pretty great company, I spent a week last March doing sea trials and hanging out at the shop. I have never been so impressed with a company, its owners and workers as I was with them and that includes businesses I've owned. They welcome you at any time during the building process to come and inspect and learn. You want to know how to repair aluminum they can show you how to do repair welding. After sea trials they expect you to sail and sail hard it is part of the process of buying or signing a contract. New owners pick up their boat do a month of sea trials and are off mostly to the highest of lats. Some go off to do the NW passage, some the Horns. I'm not sure why the swedging on their part, they do their own rigging. But they are only interested in giving you the product you want as long as you do not over compromise their strong product. They listen to me and I listen to them, it has been a great relationship so far. I can't say that for many boat building companies.

Horses for Courses....
 

There are choices in rigging; some are done by the owner, some buy the boat builder and some by the rigger. Much of the time each is trying to make their best guess as to the suitability of each of the objects/systems that will be installed based on their own understanding of the end user.
In the rigging sense; the style of rigging, or re-rigging, depends largely on the owner. sometimes it's cost, but sometimes it's on the level of interaction the owner wants with the rigging, and/or the actual mechanics of sailing.
If an owner enjoys this ongoing rigging interaction, and would appreicate the gains possible from dux type fiber rigging, then that should be on the table as an option. There are also owners who see their rigging as a thing that holds up the mast, that periodicly the insurance company wants checked and can sometimes mean another bill. Would this type of owner be interested in checking aloft for chafe, tweeking the rig as the stays creep, etc.. possibly not; maybe ss1x19 and swages are more suitable.
Just throwing it out there.....

Nicely said Robbie, The end user has to be confident in their rigging in the end. I can imagine when you use Dynex for the first time the first few months are a bit nerve racking until it is tested in a good blow.
What do the major offshore insurance companies say about Dynex? How does it work with furlers? I would think it would be hard to check for wear under the foils.

Steve,

I work in the marine insurance industry, and so far I have never even heard of a carrier denying coverage because of Dynex. It certainly could happen, but generally as long as the boat passes survey they don't really care. The bigger issue in insurance with rigging is that most rigging is used far beyond the service life recommended of the manufacturer, and this can lead to a denial of a claim, though it is still rare.

As far as furlers, you would need to contact Colligo or one of the other suppliers, but I think they still require wire underneath the foil, or there are some furlers that are self supporting. My guess is that here you would need to go with wire unless a manufacturer gave you the ok to use something else.

Field repairs?
 

I'm not going to start a new discussion on synthetic vs SS.

How big is the real advantage of being able to reuse the StaLok's (or other brands)

Wouldn't it be better to carry spares enabling a complete replace?
I like the Emergency Shroud Kits that Colligo have if you have this plus the right adapters for your mast you should be able to do most repairs in the field.

Alternatively some spare StaLok and wire?

The more modification to the "standard" product the more cost and hassle?

Knut,

I have never tried to install a stalok except on a bench vice. But underway I think it would be possible, but a real pain. Getting the wire cut square, getting the fittings on, and not screwing it up when under the preassure of a broken shroud would be a pretty difficult undertaking, but it has been done, and could be again.

I am not planning on heading back down island any time soon, but if I were I think instead of my old emergency shroud I would carry a Dynex emergency shroud, since the splicing is pretty easy.

Options
 

Hi all,
Nice discussion! Getting back to the original question, properly installed Sta-Loks are better than swages; they are reusable, inspectable, more likely to be corrosion-resistant, and you can invert the wire at its half-corrosion-life, extending total wire life (corrosion tends to concentrate at the bottom).
As noted above, one often sees swages aloft, Sta-Lok's alow, but this (a) precludes that half-life inversion, (b) is more expensive in the long run, as you can't reuse the swage, and (c) assumes that water can't wick uphill. Most often it seems that people take this path just so they can turn up the bottom ends in place, after stepping.
I recommend a serious look at Dynex. Properly scaled, creep is a non-issue. Chafe is easy to avoid. The covered version is basically immortal. At the very least, carry a piece as your spare.
At the moment we are preparing to do some destruction tests on all the major swageless terminals. Stand by for results.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

Hi Steve, Dynex Dux is certified for strength by Lloyds of London. We have provided certificates to several insurance companies now and this has been enough for them.

Extrusion style furlers still need a steel stay as the bearing surfaces are just to small for synthetic fibers.

We size Dux for a maximum of 0.1 inches of creep per year, 1 inch in 10 years, not too much different than steel, depending on the type. But, you will not notice any creep issues when it is sized correctly.

When you put some thought into it, Colligo Dux rigging is really safer than steel rigging as it is fully inspectable. The only failure modes are short term, chafe, and long term UV damage. Both of these failure modes produce highly visible signs as the fibers get real fluffy when they break down. Using it does put some amount of responsiblity in the hands of the user as it needs to be inspected regularly but it is much easier to inspect. Having a rig that is almost 5 years old now I take alot of comfort in knowing that I can see all that is going on with my rig. Also, since it is 2-5 times stronger than wire in the same application, I have a considerable window of opportunity to address any chafe issues before they become catastrophic.

Splices have been around much longer that swages or swageless fittings.

A recent customer of ours with a 60' performance cat (rotating mast) in the Carribean, sent an email explaining his 4 day upwind slog in 30 knots of headwind. Here is a quote "I sure am glad I have Colligo shrouds, ss dyform connections would have been scary."

John Franta, Colligo Marine.