Which line for a mainsheet
 

Apex, LS, XLS, ??? I find Sta-Set too stiff through my dual fiddle block 5 part end boom mainsheet that has 110 feet of line that needs to be fed out in a hurry. I have an L-36 which is wood so we are always careful when gybing to bring the line all the way in and then let it out. I wanted something that would play out easily as this can take way too long to do. There are no winches as everything is just arm strength so I am thinking strength cannot be much of an issue and stretch is a good thing with a wood boom -- up to a point or course. I race the boat in classic boat races. We have been doing some beer can races for practice.

I was advised to get single braid 12 strand and bought Regatta braid and it just snags on everything. I don't know where because the lifelines have spectra braid over them, the coamings are covered with teflon tape and all the bolt heads in the tiller are carefully filed smooth. Still the sheet came back with a 4 inch string hanging out the side and a bunch of smaller pulls. So, I returned it and am now wondering what to get. Apex is a 12 strand and may be what I want but will I have the same problem? I am looking at 7/16 line just so it is nice on the hands but not too big and heavy. Maybe simple LS would be just fine, certainly strong enough. Not sure if it will play out nicely though.

I have searched the past posts and it doesn't look like this topic has been addressed.

Help would be appreciated.

Allen

Smooth needs smooth
 

Hello,
Apex is a fall-protection rope, and as such it will be too elastic for anything but a mooring line. Regatta Braid really is the best rope for your application, with the current configuration, but the same things that make it so, also make it vulnerable to snagging. It just doesn't do to say that the bolt heads are filed smooth so snagging is a mystery; something is grabbing those yarns, and it can be treated.
Another option is a 3:1/6:1 purchase made from 3/8" Sta-Set. This will run smoothly through the same size blocks, go out and come in 40% faster when you need that, and come in with 20% more power when you need that.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

Thanks for the reply. The 6:1/3:1 is an idea I will seriously consider.

Some comments:
1) The apex I was talking about is 1% stretch at 10% load which is less than Regatta braid
http://www.samsonrope.com/index.cfm?...rope=87&inst=1 I see now that I should have specified that it was a Samson rope as were the other two I am considering. You are talking about the NE rope apex.
2) I agree that the Regatta was catching on something. Maybe I would be able to figure out what it was catching. Afterall, I did that 3 times already and fixed those things. But, 4 strikes and it is out. I am done fooling with it. I have had this boat for 20 years and never had any problems like that with the sta-set even without fixing all the things I fixed to try and make the regatta braid work. But then again the sta-set has its problems.

The one issue I have on the two speed line is that we really like the 5:1 with the line you work coming off the boom. Also, there are 7 sheaves in a 6:1/3:1 and only 4 in my setup. It is not clear that half as much line running through almost twice the number of blocks will run much more smoothly. However, it will go twice as fast and will give more power and both of these are good things for sure.

Thanks again for the help and the suggestion.

Allen

Oh
 

Hi again,
Oh that Apex. Samson adds Spectra to the mix, hence the lower stretch. Likely as pick-vulnerable.
As for the two-speed configuration, you can rig 3:1/6:1 to have the lead come off the boom, in which case it will have only 5 sheaves, and those can be quite smooth-running. But even with the lead off the deck you might have a lot less friction than your current setup; much depends on bearing quality and relative rope size. I haven't seen the boat, but I usually would prefer the from-deck version, as it usually gives a handier belay.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

Two lines coming off the boom. Two horn cleats? Interesting. I have not considered that. Not quite sure how that would work. I have seen the 7 sheave arrangement but not a 5.

Here is a page dedicated to my boat if you are interested: http://L-36.com/papoose.php
You may notice a block near the cockpit sole with a cam cleat. I use that when day sailing. When racing we bypass that and use the horn cleat. The trimmer runs the line around the horn cleat to provide some friction so he can hold the sheet and make his adjustments. In other words, we do not cleat off when racing. A bit of explanation on that. In SF bay it is typically so windy and we typically have a lot of sail up. We use the main to keep the boat under target heal. We basically put a big bubble in the main and the main trimmer has to constantly play the sheet.

Anyway, sounds like Apex is out if it will be similar to Regatta. That leaves Samson LS or XLS. If you have an opinion on that selection I am all ears.

Thanks so much for your advice.

Allen

any single braid will be delightful running throguh the blocks easily. Oh- don't use double blocks in a mainsheet, use fiddles or singles.that will help too.

use polyester if you want that simple all white look ( or are poor ).

use swiftcord, apex, salsa, conception, racing sheet, if you can afford a dyneema/polyolifin blend and like that Christmas tree look.

a fine tune is likely not needed for your boat unless you have laminate mainsail. plain dacron is crude enough to just use the major tackle to control.

cheers!

I have mocked up adding a block to my fiddle blocks and everything runs smoothly so I am getting close to implementing this with the 3:1/6:1 coming off the boom. I am settling on 5/16 XLS as it seems to run smoothly and does not have the pick issue. The size seems like a good compromise between something large enough to grab and small enough to run free. Half way between the 1/2" I had and the 3/8" you suggested.

My remaining question is how to cleat it for a race situation. For cruising, I will use the existing horn cleat for one end and the existing turning block and cam cleat on the cockpit sole for the other end. For racing we don't use the turning block as it is just too slow, which is why I happen to have two ways to cleat the sheet right now. For the new setup, one end can go to the main horn cleat but what about the other end? Should I add a second cleat or perhaps a pair port and starboard in addition to the main centrally located one.

Allen

Huh?
 

Hi again,
Not clear at all on what you mean. Is there a way you could post a drawing? In any case, there should be no ends at all; the purchase's rope is formed into a grommet, with a constant-diameter splice. Looking forward to seeing a drawing or picture.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

Thanks so much for replying to my posting. This is really driving me crazy.

Well no ends, that is an interesting addition. That solves one problem I was wondering about.

The question I have remains that, spliced together or not, there are two parts of the line that come off the boom that need to be secured to hold the boom in. Right now I have a horn cleat and a turning block-camcleat. With my 5:1 I use one or the other of these and with the 3:1/6:1 it is possible for me to use both but that would make some things difficult it would seem. Here is what I have now.
http://l-36.com/newstuff5.JPG (please excuse the mess, this was just before I painted the cockpit and added new scuppers)
http://l-36.com/traveler/Traveler1.jpg
http://l-36.com/traveler/Traveler2.jpg

And here is the sketch you requested:
http://l-36.com/3161.gif


Remember, the goal is to be able to pull the two lines hand over hand with the lines coming off the boom similar to the motion of hosting a sail. I also need to be able to play the sheet from a rail position. We like to have it wrapped half way around a cleat when we do that. That little bit of friction is just right for controlling the line.

The standard solution I think involves a Harken 402 but for a number of reasons I don't like that. A possible solution is for me to make a similar piece of hardware modified for my boat layout but that would mean giving up on my goal of having the lines come off the boom.

Allen

Here are some more pictures that I took today to add to my previous reply.

First, the day sailing cleating arrangement:
http://l-36.com/ms1.jpg -- this is what I use most of the time.

The racing cleat:
http://l-36.com/ms2.jpg -- actually, we almost never cleat if off but just put a 1/4 turn around the bottom of the cleat and play it from the rail.

The 3:1/6:1 boom side blocks (not sure about the connection that I have mocked up with the white spectra webbing):
http://l-36.com/ms4.jpg

The 3:1/6:1 cleated off using existing cleats:
http://l-36.com/ms3.jpg

Hope this makes it clear what I am trying to do. I am very uncomfortable using the existing cleating arrangement but can't think of something better.

Allen

If I can't figure out how to use two horn cleats, my backup would be to use a fiddle block and camcleats like this:
http://l-36.com/3161fiddle.gif

If I use a double block like in Harken 401 or 402, then the lines would cross as the block swivels as the boom block is a fiddle block.

This would keep everything in line although it would require that I fabricate the base for the camcleats. One of the posters suggested always using fiddle blocks and not doubles or tripples. As I already have enough fiddle blocks to do this, that is an added advantage. I do think, however, that two doubles and a single mounted below the boom double runs true with the single mounted crosswise.

I have not figured out how to eliminate the turning blocks and use just horn cleats in a way that seems like it would be workable in race or emergency conditions. This is still my goal.

Allen

I tried out the system today and it really didn't work that well. When doing a gybe with the 3:1 configuration, all the lines got tangled up and it was basically a mess. The 6:1 was nice though. I am thinking of abandoning this setup and trying something different. Basically, taking one line to the gooseneck and then back through a block to a cleat on the cabin top or to a free winch. I have two free winches on the cabin top. One end aft and one forward. It would take two crew to do a fast gybe but at least all the lines would not get tangled. Also, this would allow the mainsheet trimmer to sit on the rail and trim from there at the aft of the cabin top. There would still be the option to trim from the stern using the swivel block cam cleat when crushing, or from a winch on the cabin top for that matter. I need to work out the blocks so it is fair.

Allen

Option
 

Hi again,
Sorry to have been so long in getting back to this; we have had a lot of fascinating work going on here.
First, I can see why your version of 3:1/6:1 would produce a tangle. I'd be amazed if it didn't. But let's not condemn the idea because of, um, alternate takes. Stacking a Harken 2138 on top of a 2139, and anchoring the latter to your cockpit sole fitting, would give you leads coming out one above the other, with both or either available for hauling or slacking, tangle-free. You might experiment with cam angle, and orientation, for best ergonomics for your situation.
The boom block for this setup would be a double with a crossblock on it (the upper part of Harken 400), and the lower block would be a double.
Alternatively you could have a double block on the sole, with side-by-side cams on a swivel arm (Harken 402). In your case, I think this would only work if the arm could be bent wa-a-y up, to get a usable angle on the cams; check with Harken on the feasibility of this.
Two-speed purchases only work if it is easy to handle either or both lines. That precludes having them exit anywhere but right next to each other.
There are other ways to do this, of course. On a fairly large cutter we are working on now, for instance, we have one lead going to a self-tailing winch, and another going to a rope clutch. The clutch is positioned just outboard of the (port-mounted) winch, so it is easy to grab both it and the line coming off the winch. Most often in a boat this size, though, the crew will take up on the clutch line for low loads, and use the winch for taking up high loads as well as for slacking for either low or high loads. And so on.
Fair leads,
Brion Toss

Brion,

Thanks for getting back to me. Good for you that you are busy. I understand what you are saying about my implementation of the 3:1/6:1. Perhaps I gave up on it too quickly but I did and have tried several different systems and rejected most of them for one reason or another. Most were versions of what is called the German or Admiral's Cup system. I tried aft winches and cabin top winches. Problems with both. The next thing, and one I think I am going to really like, is a double ended system but with the leads way apart. It will be basically 5:1 with one lead going to my sole mounted swivel block cam cleat or the horn cleat and the other along the boom to a cabin top mounted winch. This will allow 2.5:1 although it will take two people to do it. But that is OK as I have a big enough crew when racing. It will also allow for considerably more leverage with the winch but still have the advantage of the 5:1 on the line aft for our general line control.

The issue I have is trying to figure out the blocks to make it work. Tomorrow I am going to try a single with a fiddle hung from it with the intersection pulled forward so the lines clear each other. Fiddle on the traveler. That was the best I could come up with without having multiple attachment points on the boom. I have never seen such a system on a boat so I may be in new ground.

PS. In terms of my "alternate take", I really never could figure out a good way to have the 3:1/6:1 come off the boom and what I did was the best I could come up with. I certainly understand your assessment of it and what it takes to make such a system work. I still can't see a way to have it come off the boom though. In terms of the use of fiddle blocks instead of duals that didn't seem to contribute to the problem. The tangle was in the piles of line on the cockpit sole. I am off to the boat to try the latest system.

What would be the best way to rig a 5:1 dual ended mainsheet system with one end aft forward of the traveler and the other end going along the boom to the cabin top? I can tell you many ways that don't work and one that does work but looks like something Rube Goldberg invented.

Allen

Added 7/28 -- I tried several more systems that didn't work. What does work is a single with a fiddle block hung from it on the boom and a fiddle on the traveler. The line along the boom goes to the single and the line to the aft cleat comes from the top of the boom mounted fiddle block. To make it work I pulled the junction forward with a line that has to split around the line going forward. Several ways to do that so they don't rub. Looks a little complicated so I am still wondering if there isn't a better way. I tried a triple on the boom and everything got crossed up as the lead to the aft cleat is at a different angle than the line along the boom so everything rubbed. --

Added 7/29 -- NOTE: This doesn't work. The single block capsizes.

AE

After many trials I think (emphasize think) I have something that works. It is a fiddle on the boom to a fiddle on the traveler but the line that would normally be tied off on a 5:1 system goes back to a single block aft of the boom fiddle and forward to the cabin top. The trick is that the line going forward has to go under the fiddle block (between it and the boom) so some kind of trap door is necessary. I hung the fiddle block from a couple of lines one of which was attached to a ring that was attached to a padeye already on my boom 1.5 ft forward of the end of the boom (under the clew). The sheet going forward then goes through the ring.
http://l-36.com/mainsheet/boom2.jpg

Can you see something I can do better than this or anything that is wrong with it?

As I have said before, this allows 5:1 control of the main from an aft position yet effectively 2.5:1 when needed for a gybe although it will take two crew, one working the cabin top terminated end, one the aft end. There is a winch cabintop for extra power if needed.

As to the question I started with, I am using 7/16 Samson XLS.

Allen